thews,

What you are essentially saying is that, if I do not answer your question with the answer you expect, you assert that I am unable or unwilling to answer the question.

But wait, there's more!



Do you see your blaring conflict in your own sentence? If you knew it was written by Clayton, how could he not be the author of the "Ham" part?

I also stated that Clayton's journal entry was modified by an editor for print in the History of the Church.

Not necessarily. We look for other corroborating writings and evidence to support the first, second, or third hand accounts we come across.

You mean like the general trustworthiness of William Clayton, the fact that we was a close confidant of Smith, and the lack of any evidence that this would have or could have originated with anyone other than Smith.

Yes, I agree.

Or Parley Pratt. The bottom line is that we don't know what exactly happened.

But, it doesn't matter. It was a hoax: so what?

OK.



WTH? You just contradicted yourself in two consecutive sentences.

Why would anything Pratt said contradict Clayton's account that Smith partially translated the plates?



Because true prophets don't attempt to translate hoaxes.

What I meant was, Clayton wrote it, and he wrote the "Ham" part, which answers thews original question. For publication, an editor changes a few words (inserting "I" for "President J.") but Clayton still wrote it.



They don't? True prophets cannot make human mistakes?

That would not be a "human mistake". It would be blatant dishonesty.

So far, that makes (1) and (3).

Attempting to exploit the gullability of others is deception, not a mistake.

When someone otherwise supported by an LDS apologist is caught out in dishonesty, it is normally described as a mistake.

I can see you haven't been around here long.

It's known as the Hinkley Mulligan

Not true. I asked you who said the words, not who wrote them down.




No. One last time... Clayton wrote the words of Joseph Smith down... that doesn't make him the author of the words, just the scribe. I realize you don't want it to be true, but please address the following regarding who stated the words Clayton wrote down:

http://www.rickgrunder.com/VanNorman/Ki ... erhook.htm

According to the data presented, would you agree William Clayton stated it was Joseph Smith who translated the Kinderhook plates which contained the Ham story? (insert answer to data presented here).


CFR (please quote it and link the source).

Good point.

We don't know who said them, unless, of course you were there. We only know who wrote them. William Clayton.

Do you imagine that either you or I were actually there, at that time in that place to hear what was said? Perhaps Joseph Smith and co. had a phonautograph with them? What you are asking is impossible.

Note the lack of any data... you said there was some data that supports your argument, yet you once again fail to quote/link it. We do know who said the words and who wrote it down (see my last post asking you the question you failed to answer.

Please address the following Mormon History:

Here is the source.

Here is the quote:

How do you know? What makes you think that Joseph didn't believe in the hoax, at first?

Because you can't translate gibberish.

Very good Simon, let's take a look at your data:


We know this. Clayton was a scribe who wrote down what Joseph Smith said... nothing new here and it's what you'd expect.


Yet in this case, we're talking about William Clayton's journal regarding what he wrote down when quoting Joseph Smith.


"President J."would be Joseph Smith... correct Simon?


This is untrue. It is known, because it's what William Clayton wrote down when he quoted President J. Agree Simon?


What altered version? Altered from what? President J. vs. Joseph Smith? If you claim that William Clayton was not quoting Joseph Smith, your "evidence" doesn't even make that claim, but rather attempts to add distortion. Please clarify Simon:

1) Are you claiming it was actually William Clayton who wrote the translation down and made up the "Ham" part?
If so, what evidence supports this assertion?

2) Are you claiming that Mormon history is wrong, and Joseph Smith (or President J.) was not the person who said the words, "I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 5, p. 372

If you make this claim, then who said those words... according to the evidence? Oh... you have yet to reference the data I've presented multiple times, but I acknowledged yours and showed you where it basically attempts to add distortion without foundation. Agree?

Wow... we agree on something Simon. Joseph Smith did believe in the hoax, as did Brigham Young, John Taylor and Woodriff. Was he acting as a man and not a prophet?