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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:59 am 
thews,

What you are essentially saying is that, if I do not answer your question with the answer you expect, you assert that I am unable or unwilling to answer the question.

But wait, there's more!

thews wrote:
We all know it was written by Willaim Clayton, as he was the primary scribe. To claim Clayton was the author of the "Ham" is incorrect.


Do you see your blaring conflict in your own sentence? If you knew it was written by Clayton, how could he not be the author of the "Ham" part?

I also stated that Clayton's journal entry was modified by an editor for print in the History of the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:01 pm 
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Then what should be the criteria for when we can trust something about Smith unless it is written by Smith?

You are putting in place a very ad hoc rubric where you will trust things written about Smith as long as they are consistent with Mormonism and reject them if they are not.


Not necessarily. We look for other corroborating writings and evidence to support the first, second, or third hand accounts we come across.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:08 pm 
High Priest

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 380
Simon Belmont wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Then what should be the criteria for when we can trust something about Smith unless it is written by Smith?

You are putting in place a very ad hoc rubric where you will trust things written about Smith as long as they are consistent with Mormonism and reject them if they are not.


Not necessarily. We look for other corroborating writings and evidence to support the first, second, or third hand accounts we come across.


You mean like the general trustworthiness of William Clayton, the fact that we was a close confidant of Smith, and the lack of any evidence that this would have or could have originated with anyone other than Smith.

Yes, I agree.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:10 pm 
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
You mean like the general trustworthiness of William Clayton, the fact that we was a close confidant of Smith, and the lack of any evidence that this would have or could have originated with anyone other than Smith.

Yes, I agree.


Or Parley Pratt. The bottom line is that we don't know what exactly happened.

But, it doesn't matter. It was a hoax: so what?


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:10 pm 
High Priest

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 380
Simon Belmont wrote:
Do you see your blaring conflict in your own sentence? If you knew it was written by Clayton, how could he not be the author of the "Ham" part?


OK.

Quote:
I also stated that Clayton's journal entry was modified by an editor for print in the History of the Church.


WTH? You just contradicted yourself in two consecutive sentences.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:15 pm 
High Priest

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 380
Simon Belmont wrote:
Or Parley Pratt. The bottom line is that we don't know what exactly happened.


Why would anything Pratt said contradict Clayton's account that Smith partially translated the plates?

Quote:
But, it doesn't matter. It was a hoax: so what?


Because true prophets don't attempt to translate hoaxes.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:17 pm 
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
WTH? You just contradicted yourself in two consecutive sentences.


What I meant was, Clayton wrote it, and he wrote the "Ham" part, which answers thews original question. For publication, an editor changes a few words (inserting "I" for "President J.") but Clayton still wrote it.

Quote:
Because true prophets don't attempt to translate hoaxes.


They don't? True prophets cannot make human mistakes?


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:20 pm 
High Priest

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 380
Simon Belmont wrote:

They don't? True prophets cannot make human mistakes?


That would not be a "human mistake". It would be blatant dishonesty.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:21 pm 
God
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
WTH? You just contradicted yourself in two consecutive sentences.


What I meant was, Clayton wrote it, and he wrote the "Ham" part, which answers thews original question. For publication, an editor changes a few words (inserting "I" for "President J.") but Clayton still wrote it.

Quote:
Because true prophets don't attempt to translate hoaxes.


They don't? True prophets cannot make human mistakes?



Chap wrote:
Your honor,

On behalf of my client I shall argue that:

1. The scribes did it.

or, alternatively

2. This is an old Anti-Mormon chestnut that has been answered so many times that it is not worth further discussion.

or, alternatively

3. We never said the prophet was perfect.

Or, with your permission, your honor, all three at the same time.



So far, that makes (1) and (3).

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:24 pm 
God
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Simon Belmont wrote:
They don't? True prophets cannot make human mistakes?

Attempting to exploit the gullability of others is deception, not a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:25 pm 
God
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Simon Belmont wrote:

They don't? True prophets cannot make human mistakes?


That would not be a "human mistake". It would be blatant dishonesty.


When someone otherwise supported by an LDS apologist is caught out in dishonesty, it is normally described as a mistake.

I can see you haven't been around here long.

_________________
Christopher Ralph: The discovery that the creators of South Park place a higher value on historical authenticity than do the Brethren creates spiritual shock-waves from which some members never recover.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:29 pm 
God
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It's known as the Hinkley Mulligan

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:43 pm 
abstract
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Simon Belmont wrote:
thews,

What you are essentially saying is that, if I do not answer your question with the answer you expect, you assert that I am unable or unwilling to answer the question.


Not true. I asked you who said the words, not who wrote them down.
Simon Belmont wrote:
But wait, there's more!


thews wrote:
We all know it was written by Willaim Clayton, as he was the primary scribe. To claim Clayton was the author of the "Ham" is incorrect.

Simon Belmont wrote:
Do you see your blaring conflict in your own sentence? If you knew it was written by Clayton, how could he not be the author of the "Ham" part?

No. One last time... Clayton wrote the words of Joseph Smith down... that doesn't make him the author of the words, just the scribe. I realize you don't want it to be true, but please address the following regarding who stated the words Clayton wrote down:

http://www.rickgrunder.com/VanNorman/Ki ... erhook.htm
Quote:
According to William Clayton's journal:

"President J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found, and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth." -Kimball, p.73; cf. History of the Church 5:372

According to the data presented, would you agree William Clayton stated it was Joseph Smith who translated the Kinderhook plates which contained the Ham story? (insert answer to data presented here).

Simon Belmont wrote:
I also stated that Clayton's journal entry was modified by an editor for print in the History of the Church.

CFR (please quote it and link the source).

_________________
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:46 pm 
abstract
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Because true prophets don't attempt to translate hoaxes.

Good point.

_________________
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:08 pm 
thews wrote:
Not true. I asked you who said the words, not who wrote them down.


We don't know who said them, unless, of course you were there. We only know who wrote them. William Clayton.

Do you imagine that either you or I were actually there, at that time in that place to hear what was said? Perhaps Joseph Smith and co. had a phonautograph with them? What you are asking is impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:12 pm 
abstract
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Posts: 3041
Simon Belmont wrote:
thews wrote:
Not true. I asked you who said the words, not who wrote them down.


We don't know who said them, unless, of course you were there. We only know who wrote them. William Clayton.

Do you imagine that either you or I were actually there, at that time in that place to hear what was said? Perhaps Joseph Smith and co. had a phonautograph with them? What you are asking is impossible.

Note the lack of any data... you said there was some data that supports your argument, yet you once again fail to quote/link it. We do know who said the words and who wrote it down (see my last post asking you the question you failed to answer.

Please address the following Mormon History:
Quote:
"President J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found, and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth." -Kimball, p.73; cf. History of the Church 5:372

_________________
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:13 pm 
thews wrote:

Simon Belmont wrote:
I also stated that Clayton's journal entry was modified by an editor for print in the History of the Church.

CFR (please quote it and link the source).


Here is the source.

Here is the quote:
Quote:
Although this account appears to be the writing of Joseph Smith, it is actually an excerpt from a journal of William Clayton. It has been well known that the serialized "History of Joseph Smith" consists largely of items from other persons' personal journals and other sources, collected during Joseph Smith's lifetime and continued after the Saints were in Utah, then edited and pieced together to form a history of the Prophet's life "in his own words." It was not uncommon in the nineteenth century for biographers to put the narrative in the first person when compiling a biographical work, even though the subject of the biography did not actually say or write all the words attributed to him; thus the narrative would represent a faithful report of what others felt would be helpful to print. The Clayton journal excerpt was one item used in this way. For example, the words "I have translated a portion" originally read "President J. has translated a portion...."
Where the ideas written by William Clayton originated is unknown. However...speculation about the plates and their possible content was apparently quite unrestrained in Nauvoo when the plates first appeared. In any case, this altered version of the extract from William Clayton’s journal was reprinted in the Millennial Star of 15 January 1859, and, unfortunately, was finally carried over into official Church history when the "History of Joseph Smith" was edited into book form as the History of the Church in 1909.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:14 pm 
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
That would not be a "human mistake". It would be blatant dishonesty.


How do you know? What makes you think that Joseph didn't believe in the hoax, at first?


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:19 pm 
High Priest

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 380
Simon Belmont wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
That would not be a "human mistake". It would be blatant dishonesty.


How do you know? What makes you think that Joseph didn't believe in the hoax, at first?


Because you can't translate gibberish.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:30 pm 
abstract
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Simon Belmont wrote:

Here is the source.

Here is the quote:

Very good Simon, let's take a look at your data:

Quote:
Although this account appears to be the writing of Joseph Smith, it is actually an excerpt from a journal of William Clayton.

We know this. Clayton was a scribe who wrote down what Joseph Smith said... nothing new here and it's what you'd expect.

Quote:
It has been well known that the serialized "History of Joseph Smith" consists largely of items from other persons' personal journals and other sources, collected during Joseph Smith's lifetime and continued after the Saints were in Utah, then edited and pieced together to form a history of the Prophet's life "in his own words."

Yet in this case, we're talking about William Clayton's journal regarding what he wrote down when quoting Joseph Smith.

Quote:
It was not uncommon in the nineteenth century for biographers to put the narrative in the first person when compiling a biographical work, even though the subject of the biography did not actually say or write all the words attributed to him; thus the narrative would represent a faithful report of what others felt would be helpful to print. The Clayton journal excerpt was one item used in this way. For example, the words "I have translated a portion" originally read "President J. has translated a portion...."

"President J."would be Joseph Smith... correct Simon?

Quote:
Where the ideas written by William Clayton originated is unknown.

This is untrue. It is known, because it's what William Clayton wrote down when he quoted President J. Agree Simon?

Quote:
However...speculation about the plates and their possible content was apparently quite unrestrained in Nauvoo when the plates first appeared. In any case, this altered version of the extract from William Clayton’s journal was reprinted in the Millennial Star of 15 January 1859, and, unfortunately, was finally carried over into official Church history when the "History of Joseph Smith" was edited into book form as the History of the Church in 1909.

What altered version? Altered from what? President J. vs. Joseph Smith? If you claim that William Clayton was not quoting Joseph Smith, your "evidence" doesn't even make that claim, but rather attempts to add distortion. Please clarify Simon:

1) Are you claiming it was actually William Clayton who wrote the translation down and made up the "Ham" part?
If so, what evidence supports this assertion?

2) Are you claiming that Mormon history is wrong, and Joseph Smith (or President J.) was not the person who said the words, "I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 5, p. 372

If you make this claim, then who said those words... according to the evidence? Oh... you have yet to reference the data I've presented multiple times, but I acknowledged yours and showed you where it basically attempts to add distortion without foundation. Agree?

_________________
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


Last edited by thews on Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:35 pm 
abstract
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
That would not be a "human mistake". It would be blatant dishonesty.


How do you know? What makes you think that Joseph didn't believe in the hoax, at first?

Wow... we agree on something Simon. Joseph Smith did believe in the hoax, as did Brigham Young, John Taylor and Woodriff. Was he acting as a man and not a prophet?

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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