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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
I believe they will, but the shortest and most rewarding path is provided by the LDS Church.


The shortest and most rewarding?

Wow! You should write copy for LDS advertising!

I mean, who would pass up on a value like that? It's the equivalent of having your cake and eating it too!

A direct flight to heaven in the first class cabin. Go Mormon and fly to God in style.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:58 pm 
Simon Belmont wrote:

Actually, a professor is one who professes. There are and were religious professors, and there were and are academic professors.

Who is "Joe"? do you mean Joseph Smith?

God, as I have shown, did not tell him that "all sects were wrong."

Um, Simon?

I think you need to reread the First Vision account. I'm quoting from memory here because after being a member of the Church for over 40 years, it's pretty ingrained.

In answer to Joseph's question about which Church to join, the Lord's response is: "Join none of them. They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."

If that isn't the same as "all sects are wrong, I don't know what is. ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:12 pm 
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But Liz! Simon has the inside dope on what God's word means at this very moment. Who cares what anyone remembers or what they were taught when we have God's one true updated interpretation through his mouthpiece Simon?

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
It is just like thews to act in this manner.

He asks a question, Pahoran and myself answer it (more than once), then thews claims we never answered the question.

LOL

Well, I must have missed your answer to the question I asked you Simon. Please enlighten me with the answer... who is "I" in the following quote:
"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 5, p. 372

You could actually answer the question Simon, or you could again go to great blathering lengths again to avoid the question yet again. Please prove me wrong Simon, insert the name of the person in Mormon history who was quoted regarding Ham and his decedents_________________________.

Here's some data for you to reference Simon... please address it: Image

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


Last edited by thews on Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:21 pm 
thews wrote:
well I must have missed your answer to the question I asked you Simon. Please enlighten me with the answer... who is "I" in the following quote:
"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."


I am going to answer this question one more time, thews. Please, please pay attention this time.

The quote you cite is a fabrication based on William Clayton's journal entry. The words "President J." were replaced with "I" in I have translated a portion... It was a common thing for 19th century biographers to do. William Clayton wrote those words, they are not Smith's.

[source]


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Yes. And if Obiwan did, he would not have denied that JSJr called followers of other faiths corrupt while claiming professors were corrupt.



Which professors to you think God was referring to? All professors, of every religion and academic discipline? It seems pretty silly for God to speak in such encompassing terms to a farm boy who rarely left his immediate area.


It's obvious JSJr was referring to all those who profess the creeds spoken of in the sentence.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:54 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
thews wrote:
well I must have missed your answer to the question I asked you Simon. Please enlighten me with the answer... who is "I" in the following quote:
"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."


I am going to answer this question one more time, thews. Please, please pay attention this time.

The quote you cite is a fabrication based on William Clayton's journal entry. The words "President J." were replaced with "I" in I have translated a portion... It was a common thing for 19th century biographers to do. William Clayton wrote those words, they are not Smith's.

[source]


And by all accounts, Clayton was a faithful Mormon who was extremely meticulous. There is no reason to doubt that he accurately recorded what J. Smith did.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:01 pm 
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
And by all accounts, Clayton was a faithful Mormon who was extremely meticulous. There is no reason to doubt that he accurately recorded what J. Smith did.


Precisely.

Truth 1
Simon 0

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:06 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
And by all accounts, Clayton was a faithful Mormon who was extremely meticulous. There is no reason to doubt that he accurately recorded what J. Smith did.


Precisely.

Truth 1
Simon 0


And if you happened to read the latest Ensign you would have to come to the very conclusion that Clayton was a good and faithful Mormon. To imply that he was not, is to assume the bad in a person, when we are to look only for the good.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:33 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
thews wrote:
well I must have missed your answer to the question I asked you Simon. Please enlighten me with the answer... who is "I" in the following quote:
"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."


I am going to answer this question one more time, thews. Please, please pay attention this time.

The quote you cite is a fabrication based on William Clayton's journal entry. The words "President J." were replaced with "I" in I have translated a portion... It was a common thing for 19th century biographers to do. William Clayton wrote those words, they are not Smith's.


And once again Simon, you again fail to quote what supposed point you're attempting to make, and provide only some half-baked Mormon pile of BS site that alludes to its theoretical supposed explanation... as long as I do the research for you. Hey I know, why not just answer the question with two words? ... a first name and a last name! Who was the person, according to historical Mormon fact, that told of Ham and his descendants? If you have supposedly answered this question so many times, well, pardon my failure to grasp your ":LOL:" worthy retorts and just fill in the blanks for me so that I can finally grasp your stance on this platform Simon Belmont. Who was it, that told the story of Ham mixed in with some Egypt references... what was the name of the person who said those words? (reference prior data from here: http://www.mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm)

Regarding my instruction to follow your path to the site of "facts" you linked, please be specific in stating which portion of the site you linked is relevant to the point you claim you're making. Please be specific... which portion of your link are you referring to?

Thanks so much for helping me understand the point you're making, because I am not understanding your point based on the data you're linking me to.


source

Can anyone point out Simon's supposed point?

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:41 pm 
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thews wrote:
Can anyone point out Simon's supposed point?



Quote:
Although this account appears to be the writing of Joseph Smith, it is actually an excerpt from a journal of William Clayton. It has been well known that the serialized “History of Joseph Smith” consists largely of items from other persons’ personal journals and other sources, collected during Joseph Smith’s lifetime and continued after the Saints were in Utah, then edited and pieced together to form a history of the Prophet’s life “in his own words.” It was not uncommon in the nineteenth century for biographers to put the narrative in the first person when compiling a biographical work, even though the subject of the biography did not actually say or write all the words attributed to him; thus the narrative would represent a faithful report of what others felt would be helpful to print. The Clayton journal excerpt was one item used in this way. For example, the words “I have translated a portion” originally read “President J. has translated a portion. …”


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
thews wrote:
Can anyone point out Simon's supposed point?



Quote:
Although this account appears to be the writing of Joseph Smith, it is actually an excerpt from a journal of William Clayton. It has been well known that the serialized “History of Joseph Smith” consists largely of items from other persons’ personal journals and other sources, collected during Joseph Smith’s lifetime and continued after the Saints were in Utah, then edited and pieced together to form a history of the Prophet’s life “in his own words.” It was not uncommon in the nineteenth century for biographers to put the narrative in the first person when compiling a biographical work, even though the subject of the biography did not actually say or write all the words attributed to him; thus the narrative would represent a faithful report of what others felt would be helpful to print. The Clayton journal excerpt was one item used in this way. For example, the words “I have translated a portion” originally read “President J. has translated a portion. …”

What is your point DOAM? Please insert the source of the person who said "Ham" and then elaborated. Who was the person who said those words?

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:01 pm 
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Quote:
What is your point DOAM? Please insert the source of the person who said "Ham" and then elaborated. Who was the person who said those words?


It's not my point. You asked for the source of Simon's point and I provided the paragraph from his source. I personally think it is a pretty weak argument, but there it is...


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:05 pm 
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Quote:
What is your point DOAM? Please insert the source of the person who said "Ham" and then elaborated. Who was the person who said those words?


It's not my point. You asked for the source of Simon's point and I provided the paragraph from his source. I personally think it is a pretty weak argument, but there it is...

There what is? What is the point Simon is attempting to make? Did William Clayton supposedly make the reference to Ham? ... based on Simon's link? I'm asking, what name is associated with "Ham" from Simon's link?

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2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:07 pm 
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thews wrote:
There what is? What is the point Simon is attempting to make? Did William Clayton supposedly make the reference to Ham? ... based on Simon's link? I
I'm asking, what name is associated with "Ham" from Simon's link?


William Clayton said that Joseph associated Ham with the Kinderhook plates. I agree with Dad that it's a weak defense, but there it is, as he said.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
thews wrote:
There what is? What is the point Simon is attempting to make? Did William Clayton supposedly make the reference to Ham? ... based on Simon's link? I
I'm asking, what name is associated with "Ham" from Simon's link?


William Clayton said that Joseph associated Ham with the Kinderhook plates. I agree with Dad that it's a weak defense, but there it is, as he said.

Isn't that nice. Are you saying Joseph Smith claimed Ham was mentioned in the Kinderhook translation and therefore a fraud? Is that what you're saying Runtu? Yes or No?

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2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:14 pm 
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thews wrote:
There what is? What is the point Simon is attempting to make? Did William Clayton supposedly make the reference to Ham? ... based on Simon's link? I'm asking, what name is associated with "Ham" from Simon's link?


The point is that it wasn't a direct quote from Joseph Smith. It originated from Clayton's journal and was inserted into the History.

What Simon didn't provide was any reason why we should doubt Clayton. You'll have to take that up with Simon. I think the implication is that Clayton got it wrong somehow, but Simon doesn't explain this.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:21 pm 
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thews wrote:
Isn't that nice. Are you saying Joseph Smith claimed Ham was mentioned in the Kinderhook translation and therefore a fraud?


Personally, I think Clayton's report is accurate and Joseph Smith was fooled by the Kinderhook plates. Unfortunately, we don't have anything other than that second-hand statement, so it really can't be corroborated, hence the apologists' latching onto it. But given Clayton's relationship with Joseph Smith, it's unlikely he would have written that had Joseph not told him so.

Quote:
Is that what you're saying Runtu? Yes or No?


Yes, that is my guess, based on the evidence. Happy now?

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:28 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
Happy now?


No, Runtu. I am definitely not happy yet.

When are you going to run naked up to the Church Office Building, take a dump in your hand, and fling it at the first general authority to emerge from the building, hitting him square on the forehead, at which point you will dance in triumph, shouting profane curses against the immortal soul of Joseph Smith, that he might fry even more painfully in the fires of an everlasting hell and that the LDS Church's every property may simultaneously sink into the earth in frenzied, seething, and putrid pools of excrement, viscera, blood, and fire?

Until you do that, I say you are a Mormon apologist, a liberal, and a general no-goodnik.

So there.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Runtu wrote:
Happy now?


No, Runtu. I am definitely not happy yet.

When are you going to run naked up to the Church Office Building, take a dump in your hand, and fling it at the first general authority to emerge from the building, hitting him square on the forehead, at which point you will dance in triumph, shouting profane curses against the immortal soul of Joseph Smith, that he might fry even more painfully in the fires of an everlasting hell and that the LDS Church's every property may simultaneously sink into the earth in frenzied, seething, and putrid pools of excrement, viscera, blood, and fire?

Until you do that, I say you are a Mormon apologist, a liberal, and a general no-goodnik.

So there.


Who told you about my plan?

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:34 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
Who told you about my plan?


We hating bigots of the super-anti-Mormon-more-evil-than-Hitler-and-even-Obama-fanboy squad are geting antsy. You need to step up your timeline.

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