I do not deny that. I simply noticed that, even though Chris is an academic, and a doctoral candidate, he made a specific point to say that a non-academic, Brent, was unimpressed. Okay, well John Doe was unimpressed too, but do we make a specific point about it?



Perhaps not to your liking, but Metcalfe has very frequently been referred to as some sort of authority on the subject of the KEP. I did not say that the same was not happening with regards to Schryver, but at least Schryver made his position known, and did a presentation on the subject.



I am well aware of the current flurry about the KEP. Brent seems, to me, to be the critics hero of the KEP ... holding back the nasty apologists. The trouble is, no one knows what his position on the KEP is.

But KEP aside, Metcalfe worship goes way back. Remember the DNA fiasco? It happened then, too.



Interesting that you would compare Metcalfe to Joseph Smith. Do we have a little man-crush on Metcalfe?




Halo:Reach is already out. Why is Metcalfe still hiding?




No, he is currently the hero of the KEP; but before that, he was the hero of DNA and the Book of Mormon, and before that, something else, no doubt. Who is this man who has such a hold on the hearts of the people?

Do you deny that a lot of people have been referring to Metcalfe in relation to the current aftermath of Schryver's presentation?


P.S. Stay tuned for my thread entitled: My Metcalfe Memoir (Mountain Meadows Massacre)

Simon, when you find out that you're in a hole, stop digging.





I've always been impressed by all the defenders of the faith who make something up and then invent arguments to attack the position that hasn't been taken.






Today is August 21. The official release date for Reach is September 14.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003IP ... B003IPCF02





Yeah. Good thing that DNA thing has been resolved in the Book of Mormon's favor!



WHAT people? You haven't been able to show a single person who is depending on Brent Metcalfe for their views about the LDS Church, and if you don't understand that that is how this whole KEP thing is being spun, then maybe a job requiring more cognition than ripping tickets at the Tilt-A-Whirl is not for you.



No. I deny that a lot of people stopped believing in the Book of Abraham because they are disciples of Brent Metcalfe.



Sure to be fact based, honest, and incisive.

Um . . . it did. But that is a topic for another time.

Remember the mantra, Darth J: Brent Metcalfe is not impressed.
Brent Metcalfe is not impressed.
Brent Metcalfe is not impressed.
Brent Metcalfe is not impressed.
Brent Metcalfe is not impressed.
Brent Metcalfe is not impressed.

Oh, good. Native Americans are Hebrews. All is well, all is well!



Simon, really, stop making it worse. That's nobody's mantra, and the posts on which you purport to rely all show that nobody is saying that as a mantra.

I have said many, many times that I don't have any theory about the KEP, and that I am willing to allow the possibility that Schryver may be right, because even if he is, so what? So stop trying to pull this out of your ass that now I'm some Metcalfe disciple because I'm a Halo fan.

You're a Star Trek fan. Gene Roddenberry was an atheist. Therefore, you're an atheist.

Perhaps you haven't been up-to-date on the latest findings, and are stuck in 2002? Oh yeah, where is the invincible team of Murphy/Metcalfe now? What happened to the "Galileo Event?" Was the Book of Mormon proven untrue because of their "research?"



That was a quick search to show you that what I said has truth to it.



I was never questioning you. I hadn't read any Metcalfe worship from you specifically.

So, even if Schryver is wrong, so what?



Remember what harmony said. Metcalfe does not suffer fools lightly!



He was also a humanist. And the movies generally have religious overtones to them (although the episodes usually didn't).

No. The Book of Mormon had been conclusively proven to be an authentic ancient record of a vast Hebrew civilization that really existed for 1,000 years in the pre-Columbian Americas somewhere.

I'm glad to know that since 2002, the latest findings prove that Native Americans are the descendants of Hebrews.





"Elvis killed JFK with a weapon recovered from the 1947 Roswell UFO crash."

Come on; that statement "had truth to it." Elvis Presley was a real person. John F. Kennedy was assassinated. Something or other happened at Roswell. So it's "true," kind of.





So I don't have my man crush on him anymore?



So nothing. Schryver's thing is interesting as a look at the Mormon apologetics community. The only questions that matter are these:

--Did Joseph Smith repeatedly claim that the Book of Abraham is a translation, by whatever methodology, of what was written on the papyri? Yes.

--Is the Book of Abraham what it says on the papyri? No.

--Even if the Book of Abraham hypothetically were true, would that necessarily mean that the modern LDS Church is the true church? No.





So what? Judging from the beta, the initials I care about aren't KEP, but DMR.





Not the movies he was involved with. ST:TMP was about "the creator" being relative--V'Ger thought that the human race was, in effect, its God, and the ending with Deckard is about humans and machines uniting (spoiler alert).

Not necessarily, but there are some good theories out there. Just like there are some good theories for Asiatic migrations.



To make this analogy work, you would have to perform some type of search, or minimal research on the matter, like I did.



That is for you to work out.



No, the only question that matter is: did Joseph Smith see what he said he saw?



ST:TMP V'Ger was in a search for its creator, and it was so determined to know where it came from, why it is here, and what it's purpose is that it was willing to destroy an entire planet will billions of carbon units on it.

STII:TWOK Spock sacrifices himself for his ship, and for his friends, but first he transfers his "Katra" or Vulcan soul to McCoy. The lives of the many outweigh the lives of the few, or the one. This was Spock's "atonement."

STIII:TSFS At Mount Selaya, Spock's Katra (soul) is reunited with his body, and Spock is risen from the dead after his atonement, just like in the New Testament.

STIV:TVH None that I know of

STV:TFF The ship is hijacked by an emotional Vulcan and "brainwashed" to believe in him as some sort of prophet. He takes the Enterprise to the center of the galaxy to meet "god." Later it is discovered that this "god" is really just a giant fraud. Later, Kirk comments "Maybe God isn't out there, Bones, maybe he is in here ... the Human heart."

STVI:TUC None that I am aware of

The ad hoc assumptions and wishful thinking about the Book of Mormon are equivalent to theories about Asiatic migrations? Yeah. The theories about aliens building the pyramids are just as good as theories about how the Egyptians built them.





You did indeed do "minimal research." Then you distorted what people said beyond recognition, and claimed that it still had "truth in it." The analogy is taking a couple of things that are true and than making ____ up, and claiming that the made-up ____ is still "true."





"I wasn't talking about you specifically, except when I was, but now I'm not, but now I am." I don't know why you're worried about anti-Mormons, Simon. You are doing just fine making Mormons look disingenuous without help from anyone else.





It turns out that the numerous and varied stories about the First Vision are not where Mormonism ends. And I know it's impossible that anyone could have a spiritual confirmation that the LDS Church is not true, because the Church says so. But hey, you've learned eternal truth through the same method that an LDS Church-owned company uses to advertise Foot Locker. Good for you.

Bonneville Communications used what it called "Heart Sell" emotional advertising to promote the LDS church and also other clients, including Foot Locker, Kinney Shoe Corporation, Wilson's Leather, B. Dalton Booksellers, The Salvation Army, Charter Medical Corporation, and The American Cancer Society.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company- ... story.html

Our unique strength is the ability to touch the hearts and minds of our audiences, evoking first feeling, then thought and, finally, action. We call this uniquely powerful brand of creative "HeartSell"® - strategic emotional advertising that stimulates response.

http://www.bonneville.com/?nid=32





Is that how executive producer Brannon Braga saw all this?

"No, there was no consideration in giving humans, talking about God, or talking about those types of things. We wanted to avoid it to be quite frank. But we did very often explore theology through alien characters. Which frankly is much more interesting anyway. Whether it was the Bajorans and their religion or the Borg and their religion. They had the religion of perfection. That, I think, was more interesting. We want to keep Star Trek secular. The human facet of Star Trek secular."

Oh, but maybe The Great Bird of the Galaxy himself was at least sort of sympathetic to religion:

"I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will -- and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain."

Oh, guess not.

Just to be clear, my "hero" comment was in the context of the song in this link.

And this video summarizes Will's position in this whole back and forth.

You know, I would just as soon see the debate in this format as anything else.

Delicate? Have you ever SEEN the man?... I didn't think so.



But Simon... you aren't God, you don't speak for God, you have no more authority than... Brent?... to speak for God. And God isn't saying much lately, if one thinks Pres Monson speaks for God.



I'm a mod. Try to not forget that again.



Your only problem is that you're worshipping at the feet of Will. It's really gotta stink down there.

Wow, you're just an argumentative little Sith, aren't you? If I say Black, you will say White. If I say White, you will say Black.

If you will read further on the website you referred to, it talks about this subject. Religions of other races are often the main story point for episodes.

Spock being raised from the dead is a powerful spiritual testament to religion in STIII. The transcendental relationship of Picard and Guinon (that's never fully discussed) is thought not to be of the physical realm.

Yes, Gene Roddenberry was a known Humanist, but from what I have read, he began to at least accept religion in his older years.

Superiority complex?

You're a mod, but you do not do anything. You deny every report.

You can see the IP range of my ISP, so you know maybe what region of the United States I post from, but I use a proxy so it will give you a false reading anyway.

So what, exactly, is your point?

Simon, the point is what Star Trek's creator was saying, not what various screenwriters who riffed on his mythos did with it, or how you are interpreting it.

You know, kind of like the Church: the institution you're purporting to defend by ignoring its teachings.

Some of the best episodes dealt with spirituality, such as "Metamorphosis," and "Who Mourns for Adonis?" The Borg's religion was perfection. What Roddenberry said, and what he did we sometimes not consistent. I still respect him as the creator of the greatest show ever.

I see. You understand what the mythos was saying better than the person who created it. A powerful Mopologist you will become.

The concept of the Borg as originally introduced was just a homogeneous alien collective where each part was an expression of the whole. They wanted to assimilate other alien cultures into their collective. That's it. Their spread was more virus-like than a holy mission. The pursuit of perfection was a later writing* development that occurred after Roddenberry died. And that's not a "religion" so much as a drive.

The Borg also weren't really Roddenberry's style of writing. I doubt he had much of anything to do with it. He has writing credit on only a few episodes, but some bear his style more than others. This, for instance, is classic Roddenberry writing. The Star Trek universe is a product of thousands of minds working collaboratively.

*I think the original Borg concept is brilliant sci-fi writing for TV. The later writing, especially making them a "hive", mucked it up considerably.

__________________
I'm pretty sure Gene Roddenberry was an atheist or at least something close to it. In any case, his writing is generally informed by a nonbelieving perspective and his ideals revolve around secular humanism. I'm not sure how one can confuse "touching on religious themes" with being favorable towards religion. I'm also not sure how saying "But he was also a humanist" is supposed to contradict the first assertion. Atheists can be humanists and there's a whole subset of them that pride themselves on being humanists and form organizations based on that shared identity.

Hello,

Oh my. In just one post Mormondom's newest hero says:



V/R
Doc Cam

Hmmm. Who is it that has threatened violence in this whole KEP circus? Anyone want to guess?