I just finished reading No Man Knows My History for the first time, and there are several things Brodie mentions that I'd like to look into further. The first is a bit about the early days of garments (on page 281 of my edition):


This isn't something I have heard much about, and I haven't had much luck on google. Brodie doesn't cite a reference for this (or I missed it if she did). Anyone know where I could go for more information about this?

Thanks!

(Mods, if this is touching on topics best discussed in the Telestial Forum, please move this thread with my apologies.)






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Since the topic is not touching on specifics of the current temple ceremony, and there is no mocking of the temple involved, I will let this thread stand here.

Port, Merc, and others who tend to get juvenile just need to be respectful.

never heard that one before.

There are several early references to the knee mark being a cut rather than a mark. I don't feel like looking them up right now. Also early images such as this one tend to show it gaping rather than straight across:



Someone more versed on Masonry than I can respond, but it seems like the cut across the knee is a Masonic thing also.

I had never heard of this before, either. So, the cut across the knee happened while the person was in the garment, drawing blood, and eventually leaving a scar? Am I correct in stating that this is what we're talking about, Dwight?

I've also heard of the "cut" in the garment, but never in the knee, leaving a scar


Sissy woman anyway …. now I could see them complaining about the other two being scar cuts!

Seems that if this were indeed true then it would have been commonly pointed out by anti-mormons years ago.

This is certainly the impression Brodie is giving.



I have similar feelings. When I first read it I was more shocked that I had never heard about it before than I was shocked at the practice.

It would stand to reason that, symbolically, a large wound severing the knee tendons/cartilage would have the effect of dropping one to their knee. Thus fulfilling this prophetic usurpation of our agency:

This is my understanding of the symbolic cut also.

Either my internet search skills totally suck or there is literally nothing about this out in the internet ether. Not even "No Ma'am, That's Not History" makes any mention of it, and the FAIRWiki section* on this chapter of NMKMH stops a page short of where the practice is mentioned.

*shrug*







______________________________
* Check out the cute word of caution FAIR gives at the link: "Those who do not wish to examine the claims contained in what some would consider an 'anti-Mormon' work are advised to proceed no further."

Perhaps FAIR should consider linking their readers to what official LDS publications have had to say about things labeled "anti-Mormon," then, in the future, FAIR can simply slap that disclaimer atop all their pages and save Wonka the trouble of having to update entries.

You have to be introduced into the elusive 33rd degree of Mormonism before you are given the knowledge. You also get to wear the Mormon fez cap after that.





______________________________
* Check out the cute word of caution FAIR gives at the link: "Those who do not wish to examine the claims contained in what some would consider an 'anti-Mormon' work are advised to proceed no further."

Perhaps FAIR should consider linking their readers to what official LDS publications have had to say about things labeled "anti-Mormon," then, in the future, FAIR can simply slap that disclaimer atop all their pages and save Wonka the trouble of having to update entries.[/quote]

I wonder if all those teenagers who had a slashed cut in their Denim Jeans knew
something that I did not?
I even remember seeing a missionary or two wearing slash/cut jeans on P. Day.

While not as obvious as the other Masonic marks on the garment, the knee mark is probably related to Freemasonry. During the Masonic ritual, covering and uncovering of the knee is important.

In the Entered Apprentice degree the candidate is dressed to expose the left knee and caused to kneel at the alter of Masonry on his "naked left knee." The left knee is exposed during the Entered Apprentice degree because it is the lowest degree, and in Freemasonry the left side is always considered inferior.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/03100.jpg
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/03300.jpg

During the Fellow Craft degree the brother is caused to expose his right knee and when kneeling at the alter he kneels on his right knee.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/05900.jpg
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/06400.jpg

During the Master Mason degree both knees are uncovered and the brother takes his Masonic oath kneeling on both knees. Thus the knee and kneeling are important in Freemasonry.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/08900.jpg
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/09400.jpg

It was mentioned that there was actually an incision in the garment that could, from time to time, wound the initiate. This wounding is probably also related to Freemasonry. According Bernard's expose, Light on Masonry, the following occurred when the candidate entered the lodge.

Similar events happen in the Fellow Craft and Master Mason degree according to Bernard. It is probable, at least in part, that these Masonic ritual elements acted as inspiration for this portion of the endowment ceremony. (NOTE: The Masonic ceremony is not meant to cause a scar on the candidate. I suspect the same is true of the Mormon ceremony.)

p.s. Would it be possible for John Larsen to give us a reference for the picture provided. I ran across that same picture in Google Books three months ago and I forgot to jot down the reference.

FAIL! it scarred the hell out of me

OUCHH!!!!

'wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.'

Exactly! Being guilty of pouring so much of my life into the temple, to come to an understanding of the truth indeed came hard and cutteth me to the very core. I described it as a gaping wound to my soul that would not heal.

Fascinating stuff, George. Thank you!

My pleasure. I too would be interested in identifying Brodie's sources. You might be interested to know that some English Masonic rituals used a knife instead of a compass in the Entered Apprentice degree.

Pg. 49 of this book seems to be where Brodie got it:

http://tinyurl.com/yevd543