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 Post subject: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:15 am 
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I just finished reading No Man Knows My History for the first time, and there are several things Brodie mentions that I'd like to look into further. The first is a bit about the early days of garments (on page 281 of my edition):

Fawn Brodie, in No Man Knows My History, wrote:
The Masonic square and compass were cut into the garment on the breast and a slash was made across the knee. In the beginning the cut across the knee was apparently deep enough to penetrate the flesh and leave a scar, but this practice was eventually abandoned as a result of protests from the Mormon women.

This isn't something I have heard much about, and I haven't had much luck on google. Brodie doesn't cite a reference for this (or I missed it if she did). Anyone know where I could go for more information about this?

Thanks!

(Mods, if this is touching on topics best discussed in the Telestial Forum, please move this thread with my apologies.)






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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:28 am 
Since the topic is not touching on specifics of the current temple ceremony, and there is no mocking of the temple involved, I will let this thread stand here.

Port, Merc, and others who tend to get juvenile just need to be respectful.


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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:53 am 
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never heard that one before.


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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:54 am 
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There are several early references to the knee mark being a cut rather than a mark. I don't feel like looking them up right now. Also early images such as this one tend to show it gaping rather than straight across:

Image

Someone more versed on Masonry than I can respond, but it seems like the cut across the knee is a Masonic thing also.

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:58 am 
I had never heard of this before, either. So, the cut across the knee happened while the person was in the garment, drawing blood, and eventually leaving a scar? Am I correct in stating that this is what we're talking about, Dwight?


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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:02 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
I had never heard of this before, either. So, the cut across the knee happened while the person was in the garment, drawing blood, and eventually leaving a scar? Am I correct in stating that this is what we're talking about, Dwight?


I've also heard of the "cut" in the garment, but never in the knee, leaving a scar


Sissy woman anyway …. now I could see them complaining about the other two being scar cuts!


Last edited by RockSlider on Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:03 am 
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Seems that if this were indeed true then it would have been commonly pointed out by anti-mormons years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:07 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
So, the cut across the knee happened while the person was in the garment, drawing blood, and eventually leaving a scar? Am I correct in stating that this is what we're talking about, Dwight?

This is certainly the impression Brodie is giving.


Fiannan wrote:
Seems that if this were indeed true then it would have been commonly pointed out by anti-mormons years ago.

I have similar feelings. When I first read it I was more shocked that I had never heard about it before than I was shocked at the practice.

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Last edited by Dwight Frye on Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:27 am 
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John Larsen wrote:
There are several early references to the knee mark being a cut rather than a mark. I don't feel like looking them up right now. Also early images such as this one tend to show it gaping rather than straight across:

Image

Someone more versed on Masonry than I can respond, but it seems like the cut across the knee is a Masonic thing also.


It would stand to reason that, symbolically, a large wound severing the knee tendons/cartilage would have the effect of dropping one to their knee. Thus fulfilling this prophetic usurpation of our agency:

Quote:
31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all–searching eye.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 27:31)


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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:29 am 
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Inconceivable wrote:
John Larsen wrote:
There are several early references to the knee mark being a cut rather than a mark. I don't feel like looking them up right now. Also early images such as this one tend to show it gaping rather than straight across:

Image

Someone more versed on Masonry than I can respond, but it seems like the cut across the knee is a Masonic thing also.


It would stand to reason that, symbolically, a large wound severing the knee tendons/cartilage would have the effect of dropping one to their knee. Thus fulfilling this prophetic usurpation of our agency:

Quote:
31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all–searching eye.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 27:31)


This is my understanding of the symbolic cut also.

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:06 am 
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Either my internet search skills totally suck or there is literally nothing about this out in the internet ether. Not even "No Ma'am, That's Not History" makes any mention of it, and the FAIRWiki section* on this chapter of NMKMH stops a page short of where the practice is mentioned.

*shrug*







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* Check out the cute word of caution FAIR gives at the link: "Those who do not wish to examine the claims contained in what some would consider an 'anti-Mormon' work are advised to proceed no further."

Perhaps FAIR should consider linking their readers to what official LDS publications have had to say about things labeled "anti-Mormon," then, in the future, FAIR can simply slap that disclaimer atop all their pages and save Wonka the trouble of having to update entries.

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Last edited by Dwight Frye on Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:21 am 
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Dwight Frye wrote:
Either my internet search skills totally suck or there is literally nothing about this out in the internet ether. Even "No Ma'am, That's Not History" makes no mention of it, and the FAIRWiki section* on this chapter of NMKMH stops a page short of where the practice is mentioned.

*shrug*


You have to be introduced into the elusive 33rd degree of Mormonism before you are given the knowledge. You also get to wear the Mormon fez cap after that.

Image



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* Check out the cute word of caution FAIR gives at the link: "Those who do not wish to examine the claims contained in what some would consider an 'anti-Mormon' work are advised to proceed no further."

Perhaps FAIR should consider linking their readers to what official LDS publications have had to say about things labeled "anti-Mormon," then, in the future, FAIR can simply slap that disclaimer atop all their pages and save Wonka the trouble of having to update entries.[/quote]

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:22 pm 
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I wonder if all those teenagers who had a slashed cut in their Denim Jeans knew
something that I did not?
I even remember seeing a missionary or two wearing slash/cut jeans on P. Day.

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:46 pm 
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John Larsen wrote:
Someone more versed on Masonry than I can respond, but it seems like the cut across the knee is a Masonic thing also.

While not as obvious as the other Masonic marks on the garment, the knee mark is probably related to Freemasonry. During the Masonic ritual, covering and uncovering of the knee is important.

In the Entered Apprentice degree the candidate is dressed to expose the left knee and caused to kneel at the alter of Masonry on his "naked left knee." The left knee is exposed during the Entered Apprentice degree because it is the lowest degree, and in Freemasonry the left side is always considered inferior.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/03100.jpg
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/03300.jpg

During the Fellow Craft degree the brother is caused to expose his right knee and when kneeling at the alter he kneels on his right knee.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/05900.jpg
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/06400.jpg

During the Master Mason degree both knees are uncovered and the brother takes his Masonic oath kneeling on both knees. Thus the knee and kneeling are important in Freemasonry.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/08900.jpg
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/img/09400.jpg

It was mentioned that there was actually an incision in the garment that could, from time to time, wound the initiate. This wounding is probably also related to Freemasonry. According Bernard's expose, Light on Masonry, the following occurred when the candidate entered the lodge.
Bernard, Light on Masonry p. 18 wrote:
The candidate then enters, the Junior Deacon at the same time pressing his naked left breast with the point of a compass, and asks the candidate, 'Did you feel any thing?' Ans. 'I did;' Junior Deacon to candidate, 'what was it?' Ans. 'A torture.' The Junior Deacon then says, 'as this is a torture to your flesh, so may it be to your mind and conscience, if ever you should attempt to reveal the secrets of Masonry unlawfully.'

Similar events happen in the Fellow Craft and Master Mason degree according to Bernard. It is probable, at least in part, that these Masonic ritual elements acted as inspiration for this portion of the endowment ceremony. (NOTE: The Masonic ceremony is not meant to cause a scar on the candidate. I suspect the same is true of the Mormon ceremony.)

p.s. Would it be possible for John Larsen to give us a reference for the picture provided. I ran across that same picture in Google Books three months ago and I forgot to jot down the reference.


Last edited by George Miller on Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:50 pm 
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George Miller wrote:
The Masonic ceremony is not meant to cause a scar on the candidate. I suspect the same is true of the Mormon ceremony.)


FAIL! it scarred the hell out of me


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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:51 pm 
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RockSlider wrote:
FAIL! it scarred the hell out of me.


OUCHH!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:57 pm 
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RockSlider wrote:
George Miller wrote:
The Masonic ceremony is not meant to cause a scar on the candidate. I suspect the same is true of the Mormon ceremony.)


FAIL! it scarred the hell out of me


'wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.'

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:44 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
'wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.'


Exactly! Being guilty of pouring so much of my life into the temple, to come to an understanding of the truth indeed came hard and cutteth me to the very core. I described it as a gaping wound to my soul that would not heal.


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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:40 pm 
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Fascinating stuff, George. Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:17 pm 
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Dwight Frye wrote:
Fascinating stuff, George. Thank you!

My pleasure. I too would be interested in identifying Brodie's sources. You might be interested to know that some English Masonic rituals used a knife instead of a compass in the Entered Apprentice degree.


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 Post subject: Re: Garments - cut in the knee, Fawn Brodie on
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:04 pm 
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Pg. 49 of this book seems to be where Brodie got it:

http://tinyurl.com/yevd543

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