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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:42 pm 
midnight rambler

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The Nehor wrote:
What negative effect? If it's true, leaving is a quick road to damnation. If it's not, then of course it's all a hoax.

Are you under the impression that the gospel is supposed to be completely pleasant?

We claim to be offering the truth, not something pleasant and happy though of course that does come.

No, but I am under the impression that the Jesus of the New Testament is not of the vengeful sort of God portrayed in the Old Testament. I wonder why LDS Inc fanatics think so much more like the Old Testament than the New Testament?

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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:43 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
What negative effect?

There are many to choose from. Let's start with Helen Kimball's account of Smith's pious words to her.

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Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:46 pm 
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Nimrod wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
If he thinks the LDS faith is a fraud there are much worse things to feel abhorrence at.

I would be very interested, The Nehor, in which things those would be, in your opinion.


Claiming to represent God, the false revelations handed down by Joseph, the fraud that Joseph was, (if you're going all the way) the insanity of believing Jesus, taking two years of the lives of their young men, waking kids up hours early to go to religious classes, the arrogance of what Priesthood is, the unending lies from other members about revelations and visions, the eleven lying witnesses, etc. etc.

If it were false (and it's not) I would consider these much more abhorrent then a line that makes people who choose to leave but still believe it in it a little 'feel bad'.

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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:48 pm 
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William Schryver wrote:
And it's cowardly pretenders like you that I have trouble with: people who will feign fellowship and conviction among the Saints on Sunday and then, hidden by a mask of anonymity, point the finger of scorn and ridicule at them as they join in the vicious mockery that passes for discourse in a place like this.

I need some popcorn and a drink. I love this "hell-fire" zealotry from the delusionally self-righteous. I wish hollywood would package this in movie form and sell tickets. If the movie were made in 3-D it would seem like the virulent spittle spewing from Will's mouth were actually hitting us. Imagine how intense the enraged and reddened face of Will would be in HD.

Will Shryver: The best bang for my entertainment dollar.


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:55 pm 
Tchild wrote:
If the movie were made in 3-D it would seem like the virulent spittle spewing from Will's mouth were actually hitting us. Imagine how intense the enraged and reddened face of Will would be in HD.


Imagine no more:

Image

A Il Maledetto, BURN IN HELL!


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:55 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
... a line that makes people who choose to leave but still believe it in it a little 'feel bad'.

No. You misunderstand me. I'm not saying I feel bad because I believe it a little. I'm saying that it is unfortunate that our religion (that I currently support) feels that if someone like me were to leave, they would remain unforgiven - even if they devoted their life to good will. While on the other hand, the stake pres in Springville who has the hots for my SIL and is rude to his wife will get the highest glory according to Mormon Doctrine.

I'm not trying to be deceitful. I still have a desire to help people in my ward while at the same time question the truth claims of the church. You are saying I'm a bad person for this in so many words. It doesn't add up. And I'm not trying to say I'm better than you because I'm not. I'm trying to say the doctrine is hurtful.

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Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Nimrod wrote:
No, but I am under the impression that the Jesus of the New Testament is not of the vengeful sort of God portrayed in the Old Testament. I wonder why LDS Inc fanatics think so much more like the Old Testament than the New Testament?


You got the wrong impression for two reasons.

1) When Jesus came he showed us the perfect life lived for us, not for God. The old line:

"When the Almighty falls into the ocean He becomes a fish."

When he was Jesus he acted like we should, not always how God does.

2) I think you got the wrong impression. Jesus taught about hell and how leaving him would result in going to hell. We claim to be his Church. If that's true, we are repeating his message. Jesus gave the scary parable of the sheep and the goats, the one about the rich man who was sent to hell, etc. The idea that Jesus was never harsh and wouldn't condemn people mostly comes from a romanticized view of him usually spread by those who don't read the gospels.

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"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:01 pm 
midnight rambler

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:51 pm
Posts: 1923
Location: St. Eligius
William Schryver wrote:
And it's cowardly pretenders like you that I have trouble with: people who will feign fellowship and conviction among the Saints on Sunday and then, hidden by a mask of anonymity, point the finger of scorn and ridicule at them as they join in the vicious mockery that passes for discourse in a place like this.


And, Will, show me the posts where zeezrom has pointed the finger of scorn and ridicule at the convicted Saints and joined in any vicious mockery of them?

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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:03 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
No. You misunderstand me. I'm not saying I feel bad because I believe it a little. I'm saying that it is unfortunate that our religion (that I currently support) feels that if someone like me were to leave, they would remain unforgiven - even if they devoted their life to good will.


I don't apologize for it.

Quote:
While on the other hand, the stake pres in Springville who has the hots for my SIL and is rude to his wife will get the highest glory according to Mormon Doctrine.


I think you missed several important lessons about the gospel if you honestly believe this. Are you under the impression that somehow membership in the faith and conspicuous callings guarantee him anything?

Quote:
I'm not trying to be deceitful. I still have a desire to help people in my ward while at the same time question the truth claims of the church. You are saying I'm a bad person for this in so many words. It doesn't add up.


If you're still undecided I don't have a problem. If you have decided it's a lie and you stay then I'm saying that you're being dishonest with yourself and with the church. If that makes you a 'bad person', okay.

Quote:
And I'm not trying to say I'm better than you because I'm not. I'm trying to say the doctrine is hurtful.
[/quote]

I still don't apologize for it. Lots of things in the gospel hurt.

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"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:10 pm 
God
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The Nehor wrote:
I think you missed several important lessons about the gospel if you honestly believe this. Are you under the impression that somehow membership in the faith and conspicuous callings guarantee him anything?


You are right. What really matters is the person's intent and their heart. How they treat others. Are they kind? Will they help others in need? Will they be true to themselves?

These are the things that truly matter. Not some lofty Priesthood covenant.

Thank you.

_________________
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:31 pm 
God
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William Schryver wrote:
Seepoo:

From what I've seen so far, I couldn't fill a thimble with the coherent thoughts generated by "follk" like you, so I'm rather disinclined to concern myself with what you think.

As for my "contributions" here in The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™, I can only assure you that they are carefully calibrated to produce precisely the effect you have observed here today. Feel free to use the "Ignore" function to hide my posts from your offended gaze in the future.


Quote:
D&C 121:34-43
34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:38 pm 
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William Schryver wrote:
And it's cowardly pretenders like you that I have trouble with: people who will feign fellowship and conviction among the Saints on Sunday and then, hidden by a mask of anonymity, point the finger of scorn and ridicule at them as they join in the vicious mockery that passes for discourse in a place like this.

Keep it up much longer and your millstone will rival that of the erstwhile Bishop Ray -- A Il Maledetto.

By the way, Ray, how are you bearing up under the weight of the curse? What most recent manifestation of it have you explained away as just another case of bad luck in a string stretching out like mileposts on the ever-shortening road of your increasingly pathetic life?


Quote:
D&C 121:34-43
34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:57 pm 
God
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William Schryver wrote:
Seepoo:
Quote:
I wonder Will, if you have any idea what follk like me ( Neither LDS nor X-LDS ) think as we read your contributions ( a LDS Apologist and major player on the MADB ) on these boards.
To say I am completely shocked, would be a gigantic understatement.

From what I've seen so far, I couldn't fill a thimble with the coherent thoughts generated by "follk" like you, so I'm rather disinclined to concern myself with what you think.



Hey again Will,

It's Ceeboo not " Seepoo ".

Peace,
Ceeboo


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