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 Post subject: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:53 am 
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On the following thread at MA&D, I asked about D&C 84:41 - if an "apostate" that devotes his/her life to a good cause (outside of mormonism) would not be forgiven - ever. The answers I'm getting on this thread are a little troubling to me. http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/48044-forgiveness-to-those-who-fall-away/

I'm hoping to find more modern revelation from our prophets that would tone down the teaching in D&C 84:41. Does anyone know if recent prophets have made this a little easier to swallow (i.e. changed the doctrine)? I know Monson has emphasized forgiveness to those that "come back." But what about those that "come back" to something other than Mormonism?

Thank you!

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Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:58 am 
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The question is only relevant if LDS Inc turns out to be God-directed and His 'plan', as LDS Inc claims. If not, D&C is all a hoax of Joseph Smith, and section 84 too.

If you yet believe, or have reservations of lingering faith, it would not be prudent for you to take the leap while yet uncertain.

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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:58 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
On the following thread at MA&D, I asked about D&C 84:41 - if an "apostate" that devotes his/her life to a good cause (outside of mormonism) would not be forgiven - ever. The answers I'm getting on this thread are a little troubling to me. http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/48044-forgiveness-to-those-who-fall-away/

I'm hoping to find more modern revelation from our prophets that would tone down the teaching in D&C 84:41. Does anyone know if recent prophets have made this a little easier to swallow (i.e. changed the doctrine)? I know Monson has emphasized forgiveness to those that "come back." But what about those that "come back" to something other than Mormonism?

Thank you!


If you're considering keeping your names on the book just in case may I suggest you follow Douglas Adams' advice:

"People will then often say, 'But surely it's better to remain an Agnostic just in case?' This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. (If it turns out that I've been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I would choose not to worship him anyway.)"

If you're just afraid of hell then you need to start praying and figure out if it's real. If it's not, walk away.

I can tell you it is but if fear of hell is the only thing keeping you in a resentful state of semi-activity the end result will almost certainly be the same and you'll be more miserable during your life this way.

If you do believe but just want out and are wondering if there is a way to get off lightly by doing something else then I recommend this essay:

Man or Rabbit? http://www.merelewis.com/CSL.gitd.1-12.ManOrRabbit.htm

An excerpt:

Quote:
The question before each of us is not “Can someone lead a good life without Christianity?” The question is, “Can I?” We all know there have been good men who were not Christians; men like Socrates and Confucius who had never heard of it, or men like J. S. Mill who quite honestly couldn’t believe it. Supposing Christianity to be true, these men were in a state of honest ignorance or honest error. If there intentions were as good as I suppose them to have been (for of course I can’t read their secret hearts) I hope and believe that the skill and mercy of God will remedy the evils which their ignorance, left to itself, would naturally produce both for them and for those whom they influenced. But the man who asks me, “Can’t I lead a good life without believing in Christianity?” is clearly not in the same position. If he hadn’t heard of Christianity he would not be asking this question. If, having heard of it, and having seriously considered it, he had decided that it was untrue, then once more he would not be asking the question. The man who asks this question has heard of Christianity and is by no means certain that it may not be true. He is really asking, “Need I bother about it?” Mayn’t I just evade the issue, just let sleeping dogs lie, and get on with being "good”? Aren’t good intentions enough to keep me safe and blameless without knocking at that dreadful door and making sure whether there is, or isn’t someone inside?”

To such a man it might be enough to reply that he is really asking to be allowed to get on with being “good” before he has done his best to discover what good means. But that is not the whole story. We need not inquire whether God will punish him for his cowardice and laziness; they will punish themselves. The man is shirking. He is deliberately trying not to know whether Christianity is true or false, because he foresees endless trouble if it should turn out to be true. He is like the man who deliberately “forgets” to look at the notice board because, if he did, he might find his name down for some unpleasant duty. He is like the man who won’t look at his bank account because he’s afraid of what he might find there. He is like the man who won’t go to the doctor when he first feels a mysterious pain, because he is afraid of what the doctor might tell him.

The man who remains an unbeliever for such reasons is not in a state of honest error. He is in a state of dishonest error, and that dishonesty will spread through all his thoughts and actions: a certain shiftiness, a vague worry in the background, a blunting of his whole mental edge, will result. He has lost his intellectual virginity. Honest rejection of Christ, however mistaken, will be forgiven and healed—“Whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him.” 1 But to evade the Son of Man, to look the other way, to pretend you haven’t noticed, to become suddenly absorbed in something on the other side of the street, to leave the receiver off the telephone because it might be He who was ringing up, to leave unopened certain letters in a strange handwriting because they might be from Him—this is a different matter. You may not be certain yet whether you ought to be a Christian; but you do know you ought to be a Man, not an ostrich, hiding its head in the sand.


You need to make a decision.

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"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:33 pm 
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let me clarify:

I'm not waffling on a decision "do I break the covenant or not". I just think this stand is cruel and hope that it would not apply to a person with good intentions. I'm thinking hypothetically. Why is it troubling to me? Because it is doctrine in a church that I belong to and currently support (with time/money).

_________________
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:17 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
let me clarify:

I'm not waffling on a decision "do I break the covenant or not". I just think this stand is cruel and hope that it would not apply to a person with good intentions. I'm thinking hypothetically. Why is it troubling to me? Because it is doctrine in a church that I belong to and currently support (with time/money).

Let me clarify: now that you've formally joined the rodents here in The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™ you are officially a lost soul. You will burn in hell. There is no hope. Your best option at this point is to eat, drink, and be merry. For tomorrow (as it were) you will be cast into the bottomless pit, with a millstone for a pendant, and A Il Maledetto as your eternal companion.

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... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:36 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
let me clarify:
I'm not waffling on a decision "do I break the covenant or not". I just think this stand is cruel and hope that it would not apply to a person with good intentions.


Well, it does. Though I think we are now splitting hairs, can you leave God and the fundamental truths of the Universe with good intentions? The only way I think you can is if your are convinced it was all a lie. If you are, then it doesn't matter.

Quote:
I'm thinking hypothetically. Why is it troubling to me? Because it is doctrine in a church that I belong to and currently support (with time/money).


If you don't believe it, leave. If you do, stay.

No, no prophet has renounced what was said. In the D&C God said clearly that he is not going to excuse himself for what he said. Don't like it, tough.

If you're this nervous about leaving, I don't think you've made up your mind yet and quibbling over the eternal fate of those who leave it if it is true is the WRONG place to study this from. You're hoping there's some happy middle ground. There is not.

Christ told people who came to serve him to 'count the cost' and make the decision one way or the other as everyone will ridicule the half-made 'tower'.

_________________
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:36 pm 
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William Schryver wrote:

Let me clarify: now that you've formally joined the rodents here in The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™ you are officially a lost soul. You will burn in hell. There is no hope. Your best option at this point is to eat, drink, and be merry. For tomorrow (as it were) you will be cast into the bottomless pit, with a millstone for a pendant, and A Il Maledetto as your eternal companion.


Let me clarify,

Please do not allow Will's disgusting, putrid, vile, un-Christ like condemnations of you, cause you any more " weights " than you and your family are currently facing.

I would STRONGLY advise you to completely ignore Will's casting of judgement upon you and realize that he, INDEED, is simply a mere broken human being just like the rest of us are.

BTW: I wonder Will, if you have any idea what follk like me ( Neither LDS nor X-LDS ) think as we read your contributions ( a LDS Apologist and major player on the MADB ) on these boards.
To say I am completely shocked, would be a gigantic understatement.

Peace,
Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:40 pm 
Ceeboo wrote:
BTW: I wonder Will, if you have any idea what follk like me ( Neither LDS nor X-LDS ) think as we read your contributions ( a LDS Apologist and major player on the MADB ) on these boards.
To say I am completely shocked, would be a gigantic understatement.


This is what DbleAgent 007 tried to show on MAD, and he (007) got suspended from the board!

Now you have seen with your own eyes.


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:47 pm 
midnight rambler

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The Nehor wrote:
If you don't believe it, leave. If you do, stay.

No, no prophet has renounced what was said. In the D&C God said clearly that he is not going to excuse himself for what he said. Don't like it, tough.

If you're this nervous about leaving, I don't think you've made up your mind yet and quibbling over the eternal fate of those who leave it if it is true is the WRONG place to study this from. You're hoping there's some happy middle ground. There is not.

Christ told people who came to serve him to 'count the cost' and make the decision one way or the other as everyone will ridicule the half-made 'tower'.

It seems with zeezrom's clarification, his decision is not unmade. Rather, it is his abhorrence at realizing the ends to which Joseph Smith fabricated 'revelations' to try to scare the flock into remaining dutiful and subservient. D&C 84:41 may have seemed hypothetical before zeezrom's decision. Now, perhaps, D&C 84:41 seems pathetic and manipulative--that is, it seems very LDS Inc.

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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Thank you Nimrod. that is what I'm feeling.

Ceeboo: Thank you (really). But Will is not a concern of mine. Mormon Doctrine is a concern of mine.

The Nehor wrote:
The only way I think you can is if your are convinced it was all a lie. If you are, then it doesn't matter.

Ah but it does matter Nehor. Do you realize I could hurt those I love in life due to what I believe? Does that not sound utterly ridiculous to you? How is this good?

Quote:
If you're this nervous about leaving, I don't think you've made up your mind yet and quibbling over the eternal fate of those who leave it if it is true is the WRONG place to study this from. You're hoping there's some happy middle ground. There is not.

I'm just hypothesizing that our doctrine (D&C 84) is cruel and unnecessary and un-Christlike. I'm not nervous. I have never really been nervous. I've been troubled at how I support such an organization with my means.

_________________
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Nimrod wrote:
It seems with zeezrom's clarification, his decision is not unmade. Rather, it is his abhorrence at realizing the ends to which Joseph Smith fabricated 'revelations' to try to scare the flock into remaining dutiful and subservient. D&C 84:41 may have seemed hypothetical before zeezrom's decision. Now, perhaps, D&C 84:41 seems pathetic and manipulative--that is, it seems very LDS Inc.


If the decision is made I made it clear what I thought he should do: leave.

If he thinks the LDS faith is a fraud there are much worse things to feel abhorrence at. I think that he picked something that would specifically apply to him if he leaves means something.

_________________
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:58 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
If the decision is made I made it clear what I thought he should do: leave.

If he thinks the LDS faith is a fraud there are much worse things to feel abhorrence at. I think that he picked something that would specifically apply to him if he leaves means something.


This keeps running through my mind: "What would Christ do in a situation like this?"

When would he say "Leave!" to someone that simply wants to know the truth? On my mission, I heard people ask if Mormons were Christians. Isn't it sad that I'm asking myself that now?

_________________
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:59 pm 
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Seepoo:
Quote:
I wonder Will, if you have any idea what follk like me ( Neither LDS nor X-LDS ) think as we read your contributions ( a LDS Apologist and major player on the MADB ) on these boards.
To say I am completely shocked, would be a gigantic understatement.

From what I've seen so far, I couldn't fill a thimble with the coherent thoughts generated by "follk" like you, so I'm rather disinclined to concern myself with what you think.

As for my "contributions" here in The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™, I can only assure you that they are carefully calibrated to produce precisely the effect you have observed here today. Feel free to use the "Ignore" function to hide my posts from your offended gaze in the future.

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... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:05 pm 
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William Schryver wrote:
I can only assure you that they are carefully calibrated to produce precisely the effect you have observed here today.


Sorry. Joseph Smith et al wrote the verses, not you.

Hateful words are one thing. It is the pious words producing a negative affect that I have trouble with.

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Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:07 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
The only way I think you can is if your are convinced it was all a lie. If you are, then it doesn't matter.

Ah but it does matter Nehor. Do you realize I could hurt those I love in life due to what I believe? Does that not sound utterly ridiculous to you? How is this good?


If you're prepared to live a lie like that, then go for it. I couldn't. I don't think you'd be doing your family any favors either. If you're not sure, then get reading and praying.

Quote:
I'm just hypothesizing that our doctrine (D&C 84) is cruel and unnecessary and un-Christlike. I'm not nervous. I have never really been nervous. I've been troubled at how I support such an organization with my means.


It is not unChristlike. Christ largely introduced to the world the idea of hell and made it clear people were going to go there and that he was the only way not to. His followers wrote making it clear that if you join his faith and then leave it it would be better to have never known him.

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"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:16 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
William Schryver wrote:
I can only assure you that they are carefully calibrated to produce precisely the effect you have observed here today.


Sorry. Joseph Smith et al wrote the verses, not you.

Hateful words are one thing. It is the pious words producing a negative affect that I have trouble with.


What negative effect? If it's true, leaving is a quick road to damnation. If it's not, then of course it's all a hoax.

Are you under the impression that the gospel is supposed to be completely pleasant?

We claim to be offering the truth, not something pleasant and happy though of course that does come.

_________________
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:18 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
William Schryver wrote:
I can only assure you that they are carefully calibrated to produce precisely the effect you have observed here today.


Sorry. Joseph Smith et al wrote the verses, not you.

Hateful words are one thing. It is the pious words producing a negative affect that I have trouble with.

And it's cowardly pretenders like you that I have trouble with: people who will feign fellowship and conviction among the Saints on Sunday and then, hidden by a mask of anonymity, point the finger of scorn and ridicule at them as they join in the vicious mockery that passes for discourse in a place like this.

Keep it up much longer and your millstone will rival that of the erstwhile Bishop Ray -- A Il Maledetto.

By the way, Ray, how are you bearing up under the weight of the curse? What most recent manifestation of it have you explained away as just another case of bad luck in a string stretching out like mileposts on the ever-shortening road of your increasingly pathetic life?

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... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:24 pm 
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William Schryver wrote:
Let me clarify: now that you've formally joined the rodents here in The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™ you are officially a lost soul. You will burn in hell. There is no hope. Your best option at this point is to eat, drink, and be merry. For tomorrow (as it were) you will be cast into the bottomless pit, with a millstone for a pendant, and A Il Maledetto as your eternal companion.


Whenever Will spouts his vile bile remind him of this.

Take Heed Brother Schryver:


Quote:
D&C 121:34-43
34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:34 pm 
William Schryver wrote:
By the way, Ray, how are you bearing up under the weight of the curse? What most recent manifestation of it have you explained away as just another case of bad luck in a string stretching out like mileposts on the ever-shortening road of your increasingly pathetic life?


The only curse I can think of, Will, is having to read your posts, but it's actually a blessing in disguise because it's a clear reminder (for which I once again thank you) of what I left behind.

The time for your own apostasy is fast drawing near, because as I am, you shall become. And I will extend to you forgiveness for being a no-brainer apologist with a Charlie Chaplin façade and the wit of a garden gnome.

You're not fooling anyone, Will, except maybe yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:34 pm 
midnight rambler

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The Nehor wrote:
If he thinks the LDS faith is a fraud there are much worse things to feel abhorrence at.

I would be very interested, The Nehor, in which things those would be, in your opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Forgiveness to those who fall away...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:37 pm 
midnight rambler

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William Schryver wrote:
From what I've seen so far, I couldn't fill a thimble with the coherent thoughts generated by "follk" like you, so I'm rather disinclined to concern myself with what you think.

Here's hoping your dexterity improves.

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