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 Post subject: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:22 pm 
God
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Apparently the "Temple Ready" program that I used extensively 10 years ago has gotten a lot smarter.

My wife went to the temple today to "re-do" her brothers work. I said huh, I thought you did his work a year after his death? "We did, but they later sent a letter to my mother saying the endowment did not take because her brother had been excommunicated. The mother had to somehow obtain special permission to redo it?

How long has this policy been in effect?


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:25 pm 
Lightbearer
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I'm not trying to be snarky or callous here. I'm just trying to answer the question....

What good does it do to do someones work after they have died if they already had the opportunity while in this life? Work for the dead is not a second chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:33 pm 
God
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Gazelam wrote:
I'm not trying to be snarky or callous here. I'm just trying to answer the question....

What good does it do to do someones work after they have died if they already had the opportunity while in this life? Work for the dead is not a second chance.


Gazelam! I'm disappointed in your answer!

The "Period of this life" is the time to repent (from birth to resurrection), I've heard it said that the "spirit prison" is divided into to sections ... Paradise and Hell, and when Christ died and went to Paradise, he bridged the gap (i.e. authorized the teaching of those in hell). Like the two thieves that died with him.

edit:

but the question is, when did this start? I did a LOT of temple ready (maybe I'll tell my jewish work in the provo temple story) and the rule used to be one year (i.e. time for them to be taught) ... no other checking was ever done.

but now question two: Who determines then if/when it can be done? What do they base this on?


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:38 pm 
God

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Gazelam wrote:
What good does it do to do someones work after they have died if they already had the opportunity while in this life? Work for the dead is not a second chance.


If I was a GA, that is the same question I would have asked the descendents of John D. Lee.

But they must not have. He had all of his temple priviledges restored.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:20 am 
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he was also "born in the covenant"


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:11 am 
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Gazelam wrote:
What good does it do to do someones work after they have died if they already had the opportunity while in this life? Work for the dead is not a second chance.

Wow... god is such a petty, unforgiving hardass, isn't he?

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:39 am 
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Some Schmo wrote:
Gazelam wrote:
What good does it do to do someones work after they have died if they already had the opportunity while in this life? Work for the dead is not a second chance.

Wow... god is such a petty, unforgiving hardass, isn't he?


God will cast you into eternal suffering if you don't do precisely what he wants.

Oh, but he really, really loves you. :rolleyes:


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:55 am 
God
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Morrissey wrote:
God will cast you into eternal suffering if you don't do precisely what he wants.

Oh, but he really, really loves you. :rolleyes:

That's one of the best George Carlin bits ever.

God really is quite the contradiction, isn't he? He's all powerful and all knowing, but he's just insecure enough to demand your love and worship. He a loving god, but he never actually talks to you in a way that's distinguishable from happy feelings. He expects you to obey, but never mentions what he wants. He has his servants do it, but none of them seem to agree on the instructions.

What's really funny is that we highly criticize absent fathers, and yet, this guy is never around. With a parent like that, people are better off being orphans.

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:43 am 
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Some Schmo wrote:
Morrissey wrote:
God will cast you into eternal suffering if you don't do precisely what he wants.

Oh, but he really, really loves you. :rolleyes:

That's one of the best George Carlin bits ever.

God really is quite the contradiction, isn't he? He's all powerful and all knowing, but he's just insecure enough to demand your love and worship. He a loving god, but he never actually talks to you in a way that's distinguishable from happy feelings. He expects you to obey, but never mentions what he wants. He has his servants do it, but none of them seem to agree on the instructions.

What's really funny is that we highly criticize absent fathers, and yet, this guy is never around. With a parent like that, people are better off being orphans.


Dead on.

He's a horrible excuse for a father. He's got all of the worst traits of a deadbeat parent that would send his kids to Westridge Academy.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:48 am 
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Since he was excommunicated by a panel of men in business suits who are personal representatives of Jesus Christ, I think it is safe to assume that Christ will judge him the same way and cast him into one of the lesser kingdoms. Therefore, it is a waste of everyone's time to do his temple work.

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:03 am 
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What amazes me is that the church will inflict such incredible pain on their faithful, unquestioning followers:

This story involves an 82 year old mother, who’s son was excommunicated over 30 years ago. He lived his life as a homeless street person, who died at 50 from a very hard life. The mother’s pain/guilt over this child and his death in the first place was stifling. The added pain/insult of the work not taking is just plan crazy.

Sometimes I really hate this damned church.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:14 am 
Gazelam wrote:
I'm not trying to be snarky or callous here. I'm just trying to answer the question....

What good does it do to do someones work after they have died if they already had the opportunity while in this life? Work for the dead is not a second chance.


Like Rockslider, Gazelam, I'm disappointed in your answer.

There is only one Eternal Judge. Who are we to determine what this brother learned on the other side?

It is Christ's determination on how His atonement is to be applied, not ours. Considering the parable of the Prodigal's son, I think it is pretty clear where Christ's feelings lie.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:12 pm 
Lightbearer
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Am I missing something here?

Everyone has issue with my reply, like I had some original thought on this matter.

According to Rock, the work was being re-done for an excommunicated member who had no interest in his life of repairing the issue he was excomunicated for.

Is there some fresh new information he is going to learn on the other side of the veil? Will he get a better witness of the spirit there than he did here?

I certainly have no keen insight on this individuals life. I am only working with the basic details given in the OP. But it seems to me that someone who had been excommunicated is not going to get a second chance in the afterlife that would entail a need to have their temple work "re-done" post mortem.

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:34 pm 
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Gazelam wrote:
Am I missing something here?


oh, maybe I see ... did you assume my brother-in-law had taken out his own endowments in his life time?

If so, no ... lets try this again, picture a 20 year old young man in an explosive home situation (his parents/siblings) and he ends up married (not in the temple) but divorced and excommunicated in short order.

This young man of 20 years then hits the streets, drugs, alcohol laden and homeless for the next 30 years till his death. Yea I'm pretty sure you are right, he had his chance, off to hell with you, he surely knew what hell is all about.

His mother waits for one year after his death and then submits his work to the temple to be done in proxy. This had always been the policy, one year. But apparently this has changed, after the work had been done in proxy ... some time later here comes the letter, the proxy work was no good.

Your comments here remind me of myself several years ago, when my friend Hyrum Andrus told me "The only thing the elders of the church need to repent of is their own self righteousness" Little did I understand, at the time, he was talking about me.

Now, can you answer my questions, or would you prefer to continue showing your vast knowledge of the concepts of repentance, grace, atonement, charity, motherly love etc?

1. When did this one year wait policy change, and this new policy start?
2. Who decides, and what are the conditions that allow family members to find comfort and do the work?


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:44 am 
Rockslider-

On page 88 of the latest version of the General Handbook of Instructions, it does state that if someone is excommunicated, their work after death must be pre-approved by the First Presidency.

I tried to copy/paste the exact quote,but since I have it downloaded via .PDF file, it wouldn't let me.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:30 am 
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I suppose the various temple software programs have just gotten smarter and are now cross checking membership/other records to pick up "problems". Maybe the rule has been in place for a long time, there was just no way to enforce it.

Years ago the church was infamous for paying their software engineers peanuts (and hence had a hard time recruiting good engineers). The old temple ready software was horrible. I’ve heard in recent years they have fixed this and are now competitive in the market.


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:52 am 
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Gazelam wrote:
Am I missing something here?

I certainly have no keen insight on this individuals life. I am only working with the basic details given in the OP. But it seems to me that someone who had been excommunicated is not going to get a second chance in the afterlife that would entail a need to have their temple work "re-done" post mortem.

What you are saying is certainly consistent with the D&C. But this policy does seem to be at odds with the church’s general philosophy of do the work for everybody and let God sort out the details on the other side. If that approach is good enough to justify doing the work of Hitler, why wouldn’t it be good enough to justify doing the work for apostate XYZ?

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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:09 am 
God

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What amazes me is that Greg Dodge, is one of only two men on earth that can unbind an ordinance both on earth and heaven, but his official priesthood office cannot be located in the CHI.

No doubt though, the big button on his desk is blessed by the FP.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:17 am 
Inconceivable wrote:
What amazes me is that Greg Dodge, is one of only two men on earth that can unbind an ordinance both on earth and heaven, but his official priesthood office cannot be located in the CHI.

No doubt though, the big button on his desk is blessed by the FP.

Image


Inc....

I have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. Maybe I am just really naïve. Want to fill me in on who Greg Dodge is?


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:27 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
I have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. Maybe I am just really naïve. Want to fill me in on who Greg Dodge is?

Greg Dodge is the supervisor of the "name removal" department. If you resign from the church, he's the one who sends you the letter saying "you are no longer a member of the Church..." or, "you didn't jump through the right hoops, see your bishop."

He's quite the celebrity among the rfm crowd.

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"It is of course theoretically possible for government to create wealth."

-Dr. Thomas Sowell
from an email exchange with Louis DeBroux:
http://kudzumollymormon.blogspot.com/20 ... rsary.html


Working Men of All Countries, Unite!
-Karl Marx


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 Post subject: Re: Excommunication spans the veil of death
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:52 am 
Analytics wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
I have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. Maybe I am just really naïve. Want to fill me in on who Greg Dodge is?

Greg Dodge is the supervisor of the "name removal" department. If you resign from the church, he's the one who sends you the letter saying "you are no longer a member of the Church..." or, "you didn't jump through the right hoops, see your bishop."

He's quite the celebrity among the rfm crowd.

Oh, OK.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not an RfM regular, so I had no idea. :lol:


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