Peterson and faith - No Scholarship, just truthiness

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rcrocket

Re: vegas

Post by rcrocket »

Fortigurn wrote:
rcrocket wrote:No hint? Absolutely none? (I know this is the EV view.) In my particular case, it did not initially come with a burning bosom. But, I point you to Luke 24:32 which is a lot more than a non-hint.


All that says is that while the disciples were talking with Jesus, they experienced a strong emotional sensation. They had absolutely no idea what it was or why they were experiencing it until after Jesus had revealed himself to them, and it certainly did not convict them of anything. In fact they couldn't explain it until Jesus had revealed himself openly. This is the opposite of the 'burning bosom' of Mormonism.

In 1 Thess 1:5-6, Paul writes: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for yours sake. You became imitators of us . . . ."

Thus, Paul himself says that a conviction of the Gospel is not necessarily conveyed with words (i.e., the scriptures) but with power, the Holy Spirit and deep conviction, and seeing the apostles in action.


Paul is saying, that the gospel was not merely presented to the Thessalonians by word, but by the visible signs provided by the Holy Spirit and by the conviction of the apostles themselves. He says nothing of the Thessalonians being convicted of the truth by a 'burning bosom'.

Augustine writes that...


I don't care for the writings of apostates 300 years after the New Testament era.

I think it is incorrect to characterize conversion to the Gospel being based simply upon a "warm and fuzzy feeling."


I agree. That's why I object to the LDS 'burning bosom'.


I guess you won't be persuaded by the writings of apostolic fathers, either. The point is that few of these persons who were closer in time to the Savior were wedded to tha sola sciptura formulation for conversion; they talked about a spiritual witness, a conviction born by the spirit. "Burning in the bosom" is one of may ways the Spirit manifests itself, but not by any means the only way.

The eunuch had no clue what he was reading in Isaiah until a disciple, not an apostle, explained it to him. We, too, believe that in large part conversion comes on the basis of the testimonies of believers -- coupled with scripture. That is certainly the New Testament model in the scriptures I have cited.

Please don't respond by simply telling me that the "burning in the bosom" formulation doesn't work. I've already explained twice that that is not the LDS formulation for the discovery of spiritual truth; it is one of many ways.



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Re: vegas

Post by Fortigurn »

rcrocket wrote:I guess you won't be persuaded by the writings of apostolic fathers, either.


Not unless they agree with what the apostles already said. In which case, I'm being persuaded by the apostles, not the later apostolic fathers.

The point is that few of these persons who were closer in time to the Savior were wedded to tha sola sciptura formulation for conversion; they talked about a spiritual witness, a conviction born by the spirit. "Burning in the bosom" is one of may ways the Spirit manifests itself, but not by any means the only way.


I don't care what people who lived after the 1st century did or did not think about the conversion process. The fact remains that the conversion process described in the New Testament did not consist of a 'burning bosom' as defined by the LDS church.

The eunuch had no clue what he was reading in Isaiah until a disciple, not an apostle, explained it to him.


I agree. So what? The important issue is that he experienced no 'burning bosom' when Philip expounded it to him, confirming to him that Philip's words were true.

We, too, believe that in large part conversion comes on the basis of the testimonies of believers -- coupled with scripture. That is certainly the New Testament model in the scriptures I have cited.


Yes, that is the New Testament model. It does not include a 'burning bosom' which convicts the believer and confirms what is taught.

Please don't respond by simply telling me that the "burning in the bosom" formulation doesn't work. I've already explained twice that that is not the LDS formulation for the discovery of spiritual truth; it is one of many ways.


Please address what I write, and not what you expect me to write.

rcrocket

Re: vegas

Post by rcrocket »

Fortigurn wrote:
We, too, believe that in large part conversion comes on the basis of the testimonies of believers -- coupled with scripture. That is certainly the New Testament model in the scriptures I have cited.


Yes, that is the New Testament model. It does not include a 'burning bosom' which convicts the believer and confirms what is taught.

Please don't respond by simply telling me that the "burning in the bosom" formulation doesn't work. I've already explained twice that that is not the LDS formulation for the discovery of spiritual truth; it is one of many ways.


Please address what I write, and not what you expect me to write.


I will try to address what you write.

I think I have said that the "burning bosom" is not the LDS formulation for learning truth; it is one of many, but not the only.

The LDS formulation is more like this: "[I]f you . . . exercise fervent prayer and faith in the sight of God always, he shall give you knowledge by His Holy Spirit, yea by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. . . ." TPJS 138. The LDS formulation speaks of personal conviction by personal revelation by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus taught that his personal presence was actually an impediment to understanding, because the Holy Spirit was necessary to bear record of Him. John 16: 7 "It is for your good that I am going away." John 16:13: "But, when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth."

Note that Jesus doesn't say -- read the scriptures and you will learn of all things -- at least here in John 16.

So, I wonder how praying and receiving a witness from the Holy Spirit is contrary to the New Testament model.

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Re: vegas

Post by Fortigurn »

rcrocket wrote:I think I have said that the "burning bosom" is not the LDS formulation for learning truth; it is one of many, but not the only.


Yes, I'm aware of that. But it's considered a critical formulation for discerning truth.

The LDS formulation is more like this: "[I]f you . . . exercise fervent prayer and faith in the sight of God always, he shall give you knowledge by His Holy Spirit, yea by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. . . ." TPJS 138. The LDS formulation speaks of personal conviction by personal revelation by the Holy Spirit.


Yes, to discern truth. We do not find this in the Bible.

Jesus taught that his personal presence was actually an impediment to understanding, because the Holy Spirit was necessary to bear record of Him. John 16: 7 "It is for your good that I am going away." John 16:13: "But, when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth."


He doesn't say that his personal presence was an impediment to their understanding (and he actually spent 40 days after his resurrection teaching them in person).

Note that Jesus doesn't say -- read the scriptures and you will learn of all things -- at least here in John 16.


He doesn't talk about 'all things' at all. He speaks of being guided into all truth.

So, I wonder how praying and receiving a witness from the Holy Spirit is contrary to the New Testament model.


Because it's simply not in the New Testament. Not even in the passage you quote from John here. Christ is speaking directly to the apostles, and tells them that they would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Nothing about them praying and then being convicted by a 'burning bosom'. Nor do we find any such process in the conversion narratives in the New Testament. It's simply not there.

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Fortigurn

Post by Gazelam »

Please share with us then how you believe that the Holy Ghost leads if not by impressions and feeling.

Please share with us your view of how revelation comes.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

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Re: Fortigurn

Post by Fortigurn »

Gazelam wrote:Please share with us then how you believe that the Holy Ghost leads if not by impressions and feeling.

Please share with us your view of how revelation comes.


I do not believe in personal revelation through the 'Holy Ghost'.

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Post by Gazelam »

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you were a Christian.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

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Post by Fortigurn »

I am a Christian.

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Post by Gazelam »

Fortigurn wrote:I am a Christian.


I will make the assumption that you are a Born again Christian then, and so I will restrict my responce to you to the New Testament.

Acts 8:12-17 offers an excellent example of the Holy Ghost and how he is confirmed on an individual.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".

As Gods children it is our right to receive revelation from our Father in heaven to lead and direct us back to his presence. God being no respecter of persons and therefore pours out his spirit upon all those who show themselves obedient to the laws that entitles them to that companionship. The Spirit teaches a man, who has a listening ear for that still small voice, the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

1 Cor. 2:9-16
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The lessons the Holy Ghost has to teach is for those that are able to set aside the things of the world and honestly seek after the teachings of Christ. This has been the pattern from the beginning, Adam instructed his children in this, and My teachers have taught me the same.

Joseph Smith spoke on this subject to Brigham Young in a dream:
In February 1847 Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young in a dream and said: "Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."

Brigham Young, vision, Feb. 17, 1847, in Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah; spelling, punctuation, and capitalization modernized.


This is how the Holy Ghost works, and is the basis for most revelation. Revelation can also come by angels and also by the Lord himself appearing. But the Comforter and Revelator is the most common way that God speaks to man in an effort to lead and guide him back to his presence.

Gazelam
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

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Post by Fortigurn »

Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.

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Post by Gazelam »

Fortigurn wrote:
Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.


You do a great impression of a frightened Ostritch there. If theres no sand around, do you just close your eyes tight, put your fingers in your ears and go "La La La La, Im not listening"
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

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Post by Mercury »

Fortigurn wrote:
Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.


Not to mention the likelihood the event either never took place or is so out of context to be...well..Biblical.
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Post by Fortigurn »

Gazelam wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.


You do a great impression of a frightened Ostritch there. If theres no sand around, do you just close your eyes tight, put your fingers in your ears and go "La La La La, Im not listening"


I am not doing an impression of anything. I am simply pointing out that the passage you quoted did not say what you claimed. The word 'priesthood' for example, is found nowhere in that passage. There's no mention of a priesthood at all. This is verifiable.

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Re: vegas

Post by maklelan »

Fortigurn wrote:
rcrocket wrote:No hint? Absolutely none? (I know this is the EV view.) In my particular case, it did not initially come with a burning bosom. But, I point you to Luke 24:32 which is a lot more than a non-hint.


All that says is that while the disciples were talking with Jesus, they experienced a strong emotional sensation. They had absolutely no idea what it was or why they were experiencing it until after Jesus had revealed himself to them, and it certainly did not convict them of anything. In fact they couldn't explain it until Jesus had revealed himself openly. This is the opposite of the 'burning bosom' of Mormonism.


Luke 24:32 - "And they said one to another, Did not our hearts burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

I think you're reading several things into that pericope that are not really there, and you force a couple of assumptions on it as well. But, just to show you that your reduction of Mormon spirituality is inaccurate, I will show you what is really taught about the burning in the bosom:

Jay E. Jensen wrote:One of the Quorum of the Twelve came to tour the mission over which the Seventy was presiding. As they drove to the next zone conference, the Apostle turned to him and said, “I wonder if you might have left an impression in the missionaries’ minds that has created more problems than you can resolve. As I have traveled throughout the Church, I’ve found relatively few people who have experienced a burning of the bosom. In fact, I’ve had many people tell me that they’ve become frustrated because they have never experienced that feeling even though they have prayed or fasted for long periods of time.”

He explained that Doctrine and Covenants 9:7–9 was given in response to the process of translating sacred records. [D&C 9:7–9] There the burning of the bosom was appropriate. The principle can apply to personal revelation, he said, but more precisely it related to the translation of the Book of Mormon. He counseled the mission president to refer missionaries to other scriptural references about the Holy Ghost. For example, he cited the verse “Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?” (D&C 6:23.)

Over the years, I have tried to learn the different ways in which the Spirit of the Lord works. Surely God does speak from heaven, but he manifests, confirms, or gives direction in a variety of ways.


Boyd K. Packer wrote:This burning in the bosom is not purely a physical sensation. It is more like a warm light shining within your being


Dallin H. Oaks wrote:What does a ‘burning in the bosom’ mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom.


The New Era wrote:Different people describe the feelings of the Holy Ghost in different ways. Some people describe the feeling as a “burning in the bosom” (see D&C 9:8), others talk about feeling filled with light (see D&C 88:67), and still others simply describe the promptings of the Spirit as a feeling of joy, peace, or calm (see D&C 6:22–23; D&C 11:13).


In every example I've ever seen of someone describing a spiritual witness they have only said "burning bosom" after they mention that they can't explain what it's like. This is the entire reason for President Packer's famous talk about describing the taste of salt. Perhaps the "'burning bosom' of Mormonism" is closer to what you describe than you are willing to admit.
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Re: vegas

Post by Fortigurn »

maklelan wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
rcrocket wrote:No hint? Absolutely none? (I know this is the EV view.) In my particular case, it did not initially come with a burning bosom. But, I point you to Luke 24:32 which is a lot more than a non-hint.


All that says is that while the disciples were talking with Jesus, they experienced a strong emotional sensation. They had absolutely no idea what it was or why they were experiencing it until after Jesus had revealed himself to them, and it certainly did not convict them of anything. In fact they couldn't explain it until Jesus had revealed himself openly. This is the opposite of the 'burning bosom' of Mormonism.


Luke 24:32 - "And they said one to another, Did not our hearts burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

I think you're reading several things into that pericope that are not really there, and you force a couple of assumptions on it as well.


What am I reading into it? The Mormon 'burning bosom' is supposed to be a spiritual witness to the truth of what you've heard or been taught. The disciples did not receive such a thing here.

But, just to show you that your reduction of Mormon spirituality is inaccurate...


Where did I carry out any such reduction?

...I will show you what is really taught about the burning in the bosom:

Jay E. Jensen wrote:One of the Quorum of the Twelve came to tour the mission over which the Seventy was presiding. As they drove to the next zone conference, the Apostle turned to him and said, “I wonder if you might have left an impression in the missionaries’ minds that has created more problems than you can resolve. As I have traveled throughout the Church, I’ve found relatively few people who have experienced a burning of the bosom. In fact, I’ve had many people tell me that they’ve become frustrated because they have never experienced that feeling even though they have prayed or fasted for long periods of time.”

He explained that Doctrine and Covenants 9:7–9 was given in response to the process of translating sacred records. [D&C 9:7–9] There the burning of the bosom was appropriate. The principle can apply to personal revelation, he said, but more precisely it related to the translation of the Book of Mormon. He counseled the mission president to refer missionaries to other scriptural references about the Holy Ghost. For example, he cited the verse “Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?” (D&C 6:23.)

Over the years, I have tried to learn the different ways in which the Spirit of the Lord works. Surely God does speak from heaven, but he manifests, confirms, or gives direction in a variety of ways.


Boyd K. Packer wrote:This burning in the bosom is not purely a physical sensation. It is more like a warm light shining within your being


Dallin H. Oaks wrote:What does a ‘burning in the bosom’ mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom.


The New Era wrote:Different people describe the feelings of the Holy Ghost in different ways. Some people describe the feeling as a “burning in the bosom” (see D&C 9:8), others talk about feeling filled with light (see D&C 88:67), and still others simply describe the promptings of the Spirit as a feeling of joy, peace, or calm (see D&C 6:22–23; D&C 11:13).


In every example I've ever seen of someone describing a spiritual witness they have only said "burning bosom" after they mention that they can't explain what it's like. This is the entire reason for President Packer's famous talk about describing the taste of salt.


That's great, but none of this actually addresses my point, which is that the disciples did not receive this 'burning bosom' experience as defined by your own quotes, and nor does anyone else in the New Testament.

Perhaps the "'burning bosom' of Mormonism" is closer to what you describe than you are willing to admit.


What did I describe?

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Post by Mister Scratch »

Gazelam wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.


You do a great impression of a frightened Ostritch there. If theres no sand around, do you just close your eyes tight, put your fingers in your ears and go "La La La La, Im not listening"


No, Gaz---Fortigurn is right. This is yet another piece of evidence indicating that you do not even understand the scriptures you cite. The Corinthian passage tells of "the things of God" operating in a different, separate, spiritual sphere that is separate from the "things of man." It seems that you do not actually understand these scriptures in an especially deep way, Gazelam, but instead rely on Church manuals for all your understanding.

But, hey, since you think the HG is a material fact, why don't you just pray and have the Spirit guide your fingers into typing up a totally lucid and articulate exegesis?

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