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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:17 am 
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Has this thread strayed far enough away from the OP that we can just let it die?
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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:33 am 
Trevor wrote:
Has this thread strayed far enough away from the OP that we can just let it die?
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Oh, not before Will responds to Beastie. This is just getting interesting. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:00 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
Trevor wrote:
Has this thread strayed far enough away from the OP that we can just let it die?
.
.
.
.
.


Oh, not before Will responds to Beastie. This is just getting interesting. :lol:

As you wish ...
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In the course of less than a week we have been able, as expected, to reach the pinnacle of irony in The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™:

Beastlie (an unmarried woman living with a man) and Ray A (an adulterer and long-time “lone wolf” predatory male) lecturing on marital fidelity and the meaning of chastity to a man who has “known” but one woman, who in turn has “known” but one man, and who have been blissfully joined in matrimony for almost three decades.

Folks, it simply does not get any richer than this.

It remains the task of the artists and the social scientists to sort out the various reasons and motivations behind the almost-comical reality of how exmormons just love to set themselves up as the arbiters of morality for their former brothers and sisters in the faith.

I mean, the mere idea of beastlie citing Ezra Taft Benson ( :surprised: ) in an attempt to condemn what she views as the moral turpitude of a faithful LDS message board adversary … oh, my! Logic and reason are meaningless in this wonderland, and yet no one seems to detect anything amiss in the tableau thus produced!

Well, in my estimation, this is classic exmormon behavior in spades. And I’m satisfied, once again, that – if nothing else – the exmormon remains perhaps the most predictable species in the social environment on planet earth.

Thank you one and all for participating in the study.

‘Til we meet, ‘til we meet, … ‘til we meet again …

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:27 am 
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I mean, the mere idea of beastlie citing Ezra Taft Benson ( :surprised: ) in an attempt to condemn what she views as the moral turpitude of a faithful LDS message board adversary … oh, my! Logic and reason are meaningless in this wonderland, and yet no one seems to detect anything amiss in the tableau thus produced!


Honestly, I had precisely the same reaction when I read your post calling Ray A. to repentance. Seriously? Using LDS-Speak to an ex-mormon? That's almost as ridiculous as using the Bible to prove a point to an atheist. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:28 am 
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William Schryver wrote:
And, ironically enough, if we were having this discussion in any other venue than a LDS-related message board, normal people would think that your finding something wrong with my commenting on KA's blog entry about her cosmetic surgery was just freakishly prudish, and anachronistically Victorian. It is, after all, the 21st century, and people do talk about such things absent any sense of shame.

You're wrong. If I did it in the workplace, I'd be fired for sexual harassment. I fear giving anyone compliments on how they look. Sometimes I think that if I accidently blink while a woman is around that I'll be kicked to the street. This is, after all, the 21st century and people fear and overuse litigation.

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:41 am 
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Fionn wrote:
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I mean, the mere idea of beastlie citing Ezra Taft Benson ( :surprised: ) in an attempt to condemn what she views as the moral turpitude of a faithful LDS message board adversary … oh, my! Logic and reason are meaningless in this wonderland, and yet no one seems to detect anything amiss in the tableau thus produced!


Honestly, I had precisely the same reaction when I read your post calling Ray A. to repentance. Seriously? Using LDS-Speak to an ex-mormon? That's almost as ridiculous as using the Bible to prove a point to an atheist. :lol:

The difference being, of course, that I was acutely conscious (and even hinted at) the irony I was intentionally producing. Neither Ray nor beastlie nor, as far as I can tell, almost any randomly-selected exmormon, are aware of their own ironic actions. I'm becoming convinced that the trauma of leaving Mormonism is such that it must damage the part of the brain that processes ironic input.

In any case, my tolerance for this level of undiluted irony is relatively low these days, and therefore I must excuse myself from this message board for an undetermined period of time.

It remains to be seen if composite characters and polemical dialog can make some sense of it all ...

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:46 am 
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Anybody who wishes to ensure that readers of this board (both male and female) possessing a mindset more or less typical of thoughtful members of the US middle classes get the worst possible impression of the effects of membership of the CoJCoLDS should encourage Schryver to post here as often and as copiously as possible.

To be honest, though, I doubt very much that he is a truly typical specimen.

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:48 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
William Schryver wrote:
And, ironically enough, if we were having this discussion in any other venue than a LDS-related message board, normal people would think that your finding something wrong with my commenting on KA's blog entry about her cosmetic surgery was just freakishly prudish, and anachronistically Victorian. It is, after all, the 21st century, and people do talk about such things absent any sense of shame.

You're wrong. If I did it in the workplace, I'd be fired for sexual harassment. I fear giving anyone compliments on how they look. Sometimes I think that if I accidently blink while a woman is around that I'll be kicked to the street. This is, after all, the 21st century and people fear and overuse litigation.

In case you hadn't noticed, this isn't a workplace environment.

And even in that case, the fact remains that Kimberly Ann made her cosmetic surgery the topic of a publicly-available blog entry (and a funny one, at that). In so doing, she placed the subject matter in the public domain, as it were.

Furthermore, unless she's adopted a more prudish stance of late, I'm quite confident that KA was not offended in any way by my complimenting the results as evidenced by her lovely Easter photo (as seen in her current avatar.)

Again, KA, you look great! And you seem far less resentful than many of your fellow exmormons. I dare say getting away from Mormonism has done you some good. You look a lot more vibrant now than you did when I first met you.

Hey, it could very well be that, true or not, Mormonism is not the best path for all people. I'm certainly willing to entertain that possibility. I'm all for free will.

And now I simply must free this Will from the time consumption incident to this message board.

Ciao a tutti ...

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:51 am 
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Beastlie (an unmarried woman living with a man) and Ray A (an adulterer and long-time “lone wolf” predatory male) lecturing on marital fidelity and the meaning of chastity to a man who has “known” but one woman, who in turn has “known” but one man, and who have been blissfully joined in matrimony for almost three decades.

Folks, it simply does not get any richer than this.

It remains the task of the artists and the social scientists to sort out the various reasons and motivations behind the almost-comical reality of how exmormons just love to set themselves up as the arbiters of morality for their former brothers and sisters in the faith.

I mean, the mere idea of beastlie citing Ezra Taft Benson ( :surprised: ) in an attempt to condemn what she views as the moral turpitude of a faithful LDS message board adversary … oh, my! Logic and reason are meaningless in this wonderland, and yet no one seems to detect anything amiss in the tableau thus produced!

Well, in my estimation, this is classic exmormon behavior in spades. And I’m satisfied, once again, that – if nothing else – the exmormon remains perhaps the most predictable species in the social environment on planet earth.

Thank you one and all for participating in the study.


As I expected, this response doesn't address the point and attempts to divert attention.

Neither Ray nor I are LDS. Neither Ray nor I feel any compulsion to view the counsel of LDS prophets as anything other than their own opinions. You, on the other hand, claim to be an LDS believer. So you, not Ray nor I, ought to care what your prophets have said on this issue, and ought to have some interest in comporting your behavior accordingly. In fact, I specifically shared Benson's quote to demonstrate why I did not believe your wife would be ok with your behavior. Your wife is LDS, is she not? So, in that case, it's not me "lecturing you", but an LDS prophet.

Aside from that, the point is that people who are married, or who have long-term intimate relations, demonstrate behaviors that indicate "love and respect" or do not demonstrate those behaviors. That has nothing to do with being LDS, and rather has to do with being a human being.

It is ironic that I, an unmarried atheist who enjoys a loving, intimate relationship with my sweetie, am able to recognize this while you, an LDS believer married in the temple, apparently do not.

You can insist as loudly as you want that your flirtatious and often suggestive behavior toward other women do not indicate a lack of respect for your wife. Perhaps in the private universe you've constructed in your mind, that is true. However, I suspect most people would agree with my judgment of your behavior. Yeah, I'm sure you love your wife. Your behavior does not indicate respect. And you know, full well, I'm not just talking about references to KA's cosmetic surgery. Once again, men who feel compelled to brag loudly about their virility and manhood usually have reasons to feel insecure about those same things.

I'd like to hear from the other married men on this thread, LDS or not. Would you feel that behaving in a flirtatious and/or suggestive manner toward other women shows respect for your wife? (or vice versa for women)

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:56 am 
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William Schryver wrote:
In case you hadn't noticed, this isn't a workplace environment.

I noticed. I also noted that there are indeed places other than an LDS-related message board where someone would find something wrong with commenting on KA's blog entry about her cosmetic surgery.

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:01 am 
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William Schryver wrote:
...she can laugh along with me at the hypocritical nature of the typical female apostate...

What is the typical female apostate - or should I be afraid to ask?

William Schryver wrote:
KA was the hot little dish I had seen in the black spaghetti strap number at the exmo conference

Hot little dish?

Oh.

My.

William Schryver wrote:
...normal people would think that your finding something wrong with my commenting on KA's blog entry about her cosmetic surgery was just freakishly prudish

Making comments with sexual references or overtures is a long way from "commenting on KA's blog entry".

It is not the fact that you are making comments that people are reacting to. It is the type of comments that they are.

Somehow not what many would expect from a self-described Christian man. I don't think it's out of line to have certain impressions and expectations of people who make their religious beliefs a big focus in their lives and interactions. In that case, it's not so strange that even exmos would take a look at the scriptures you believe in and ask what-the-heck???

"Keep your mind on the things above" is a biblical scripture that leaps to mind for me. In your case, I would alter it to include "mind and eyes". That wouldn't include honing in on KA's torso and fixating on her anatomy. Unless she is freakishly tall and you are unusually short-statured and your eyes have no place else to go but even so, that would be a lame excuse for being an offensive, obtrusive, annoying, unrepentant breast-starer.

I actually appreciated the Mormon missionaries, among the only males I encountered who actually looked at my face when they talked to me. Excuse me for thinking that was something to do with their religion. So we're back to the point already made elsewhere that yeah, if you preach the Word people may expect you to follow it yourself. Crazy how that works eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:04 am 
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Chap wrote:
Anybody who wishes to ensure that readers of this board (both male and female) possessing a mindset more or less typical of thoughtful members of the US middle classes get the worst possible impression of the effects of membership of the CoJCoLDS should encourage Schryver to post here as often and as copiously as possible.

To be honest, though, I doubt very much that he is a truly typical specimen.

Geez ... they do come out of the woodwork when I visit, don't they?

Well, Chap, old buddy old pal, the fact is that I am probably, your belief to the contrary notwithstanding, the prototypical Latter-day Saint in almost every appreciable way.

I'm certainly not on the fringes in any way I can imagine, unlike most of the so-called "faithful" LDS who post here on a regular basis.

My widely-acknowledged and consistently-attested orthodoxy in all things has resulted in my having served in leadership positions at all levels short of the general.

I am, no doubt, a bit more "colorful" than some of my spiritual peers. Or at least it seems that way to you humorless SOBs whose stereotypical views of Mormons in general consists largely of willful distortions and self-serving exaggerations.

OK, enough, I simply must move on to other things now.


L'hitraot ...

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:08 am 
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William Schryver wrote:
Chap wrote:
Anybody who wishes to ensure that readers of this board (both male and female) possessing a mindset more or less typical of thoughtful members of the US middle classes get the worst possible impression of the effects of membership of the CoJCoLDS should encourage Schryver to post here as often and as copiously as possible.

To be honest, though, I doubt very much that he is a truly typical specimen.

Chap, old buddy old pal, the fact is that I am probably, your belief to the contrary notwithstanding, the prototypical Latter-day Saint in almost every appreciable way.


Good stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:14 am 
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"Keep your mind on the things above" is a biblical scripture that leaps to mind for me. In your case, I would alter it to include "mind and eyes". That wouldn't include honing in on KA's torso and fixating on her anatomy. Unless she is freakishly tall and you are unusually short-statured and your eyes have no place else to go but even so, that would be a lame excuse for being an offensive, obtrusive, annoying, unrepentant breast-starer.

I actually appreciated the Mormon missionaries, among the only males I encountered who actually looked at my face when they talked to me. Excuse me for thinking that was something to do with their religion. So we're back to the point already made elsewhere that yeah, if you preach the Word people may expect you to follow it yourself. Crazy how that works eh?



Heh. I first noticed this trait in Will when he referred to his first meeting with KA long ago (too long ago for me to be able to find the post). IIRC, he stated he could hardly take his eyes off her, hinting strongly that his eyes were drawn mainly toward her breasts. It surprised me for a self-professed LDS believer to make such a comment, so I began to notice other comments he would make, as well. His comments about women's anatomy were frequent enough that he did, indeed, appear to be the cyber equivalent of a "breast-starer".

I do admit I have a bias against men who ogle women like that. Sure, men appreciate a woman's body, and vice versa, but men who have a modicum of respect for females don't openly ogle them. Some men are just so obnoxious about it that it's stunning. And they figure females should be flattered by their attention. Ugh.

I'm as vain as anyone else, and, throughout my life, knowing that men found me attractive gave me feelings of pleasure. But men more than adequately convey that in subtle, non-ogling ways. It never gave me pleasure for a man to openly ogle me. The message that conveyed wasn't "you're an attractive woman", but rather, "you're a piece of meat that I have the right to visually molest as openly as I want."

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:20 am 
beastie wrote:
Heh. I first noticed this trait in Will when he referred to his first meeting with KA long ago (too long ago for me to be able to find the post).

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... and#p81880


Last edited by rcrocket on Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:23 am 
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beastie wrote:
It never gave me pleasure for a man to openly ogle me. The message that conveyed wasn't "you're an attractive woman", but rather, "you're a piece of meat that I have the right to visually molest as openly as I want."


Absolutely, Beastie. I appreciate people looking at my face when they're talking to me. At least throughout the best part of the conversation. Besides, if a man's eyes are elsewhere, are their brains far behind? Then you can be sure they're not concentrating on what you're saying and will likely miss something vital. :lol:

But yeah. On this and other issues, the point is not for a supposedly religious man to be the same as others (as they often claim as an excuse) but to be better than. That is the message, right? I don't see what the problem is with having expectations of people who are preaching to you that they will try to be at least as civil as other people outside their group. How lame is it to claim to be "no worse" than a non-believer? (I'm not saying Will S said that - I'm just generalizing).

(Sorry for all the italics. Guess I'm taking over from DCP). hehe


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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:26 am 
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The title of the post is enough, isn't it? Purposefully outing details of my private life -- in a sexual way?


Oh, for heaven's sake. We've been over this ad nauseum. Yes, I made a joke at your expense, and it was in poor taste. No, I did not out details of your personal life. Yes, I apologized shortly afterward.

As I've said before, if this is the worst you can drag up from my posting, I must be a saint.

So, tell us, crocket - if you made flirtatious and/or suggestive comments to other women, would your wife feel respected by you?

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:31 am 
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I usually look at people's feet, and no, I don't have a shoe fetish. Conversely, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone check me out. You'd think that with blue eyes it would be tempting, but alas those blue eyes are probably looking at your shoes. Hey, I'm an outgoing engineer. The normal ones only look at their own shoes (and not because they put mirrors on them).

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:33 am 
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Nightingale wrote:
But yeah. On this and other issues, the point is not for a supposedly religious man to be the same as others (as they often claim as an excuse) but to be better than. That is the message, right?

No.
Quote:
I don't see what the problem is with having expectations of people who are preaching to you that they will try to be at least as civil as other people outside their group.

Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:38 am 
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I simply cannot let this one pass without comment.

beastlie:
Quote:
Heh. I first noticed this trait in Will when he referred to his first meeting with KA long ago (too long ago for me to be able to find the post). IIRC, he stated he could hardly take his eyes off her, hinting strongly that his eyes were drawn mainly toward her breasts. It surprised me for a self-professed LDS believer to make such a comment, so I began to notice other comments he would make, as well. His comments about women's anatomy were frequent enough that he did, indeed, appear to be the cyber equivalent of a "breast-starer".

beastlie, you are a lying, deceitful ____ of a woman.

I defy anyone to locate anything I have ever written on this board or elsewhere that could be reasonably seen as fitting the description you give above.

I have long understood that you people are not beneath making these sorts of "over-the-top" charges. The things Scratch and others have written about DCP over the years are ample proof of that. And I also understand that you don't find it necessary to document allegations that you make, no matter how outrageous. It is your sole intent to throw out this kind of stuff and then permit it to take on a life of its own. But there is a distinct difference between my carefully-worded "flirtations" and the type of things you insinuate above. So, search away, and let's see what you can turn up. If you fail, then it will be evident to everyone -- at least the honest ones -- that you are little more than a rank propagandist.

And, for the record, I find it difficult to believe that "men" have ever found you attractive, at least not without the aid of excess testosterone, several shots of tequila and extremely dim lighting. You are simply too ugly in soul for it to not show through. It gives me the willies just thinking about what you must really look like ...

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 Post subject: Re: Building the FARMS Ziggurat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:40 am 
beastie wrote:
Hey, bob, it's a miracle you have seven kids. I guess that means your wife laid back and thought of England seven times. God knows I'd never let a misogynist touch me.
beastie wrote:
No, I did not out details of your personal life.


Hmm. The two quotes don't quite add up, do they?

beastie wrote:
Yes, I apologized shortly afterward.


Didja now? I must have missed it. Maybe your original post was a "test" and all in fun.

Continue on with your comments about somebody else's sexual misbehavior.


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