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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:40 pm 
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I have been discussing the masturbation taboo with a close LDS friend. I also recently read something that my now adult son wrote in a diary when he was about 12 about masturbating. It broke my heart. My discussions with me friend also break my heart when I see the pain he and I both had when we were adolescents and we thought we were awful sinners and perverts because of this activity. We did not know each other then though. I wonder how much torment LDS youth go through over this activity and feeling like they are a major perverted sinner for doing it. I know I did. I know now my son did, horribly. I wish I had done better with him on this issue.

I don't have the heart to share it currently, especially what my son wrote. By the way, this thing he wrote for some reason ended up and a dresser drawer of my wife's and she was cleaning it out and ran across this item. No snooping. It was just there on a few random sheets of paper.

One thing I know, is this is an issue that can be dealt with better, whether one thinks it a sin or totally normal.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:46 pm 
Jason Bourne wrote:
One thing I know, is this is an issue that can be dealt with better, whether one thinks it a sin or totally normal.


I agree.

And it certainly isn't something I want any of my children discussing with a random adult behind closed doors.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:23 pm 
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This thread turned into a sophomoric dirty joke, photo, and innuendo fest, but I think the best way to attack these archaic ideas about what is and isn't sin is by making fun of them. The reality is that human sexuality is perfectly natural, and people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they're not hurting anyone. We aren't living in the Dark Ages, so why should we live under archaic ideas about human sexuality? We have to beat down the walls of these old Puritan feelings about the "evil" of sex and passion. To quote the song "If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad".

We've got to work our way out of these archaic definitions of what is right and wrong, and we definitely have to stop taking the word of deluded old farts who've gone their whole lives afraid to experience any pleasure beyond two minute babymaking sessions as law. Why don't they come up with something of substance for once, something inspiring and helpful to all men? It appears all they can do is find fault in their "flock". They're not sheperds, they're masochists.

Whatever they may think, they aren't Gods and they aren't Prophets. Their preoccupation with the sexual habits of their "flock" makes them one thing, perverts. (This of course goes for all religions where sexuality is brought up by a church. Some churchs have realized that they're stepping over the line with their directions on sexual things, but the LDS church apparently hasn't gotten the memo yet.)

Who the hell are they to invade the bedrooms of their members? Why don't they show some respect for the private lives of their members? Why don't they have some respect for their members? The answer to all those questions is that they don't respect their "flock". They have gotten drunk on power to the point where they actually think they can speak for the Almighty, and can say or do whatever they want, damn the consequences. I think they're full of s*** myself.

End of rant

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:43 pm 
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Mister Scratch wrote:
Zakuska wrote:
If you have a wife and she has a husband, and your body is ment for each other and not for yourselves as Paul says.

Whats the use of flying solo? Practice makes perfect?


Perhaps the more relevant question is: What is the harm in "flying solo"? Frankly, I find the LDS counsel against masturbation to be utterly ridiculous and indicative of larger (and completely illogical) fears about sex. C'mon, Zak---haven't you ever read Foucault's History of Sexuality?


No need... I'm married to a Brazilian. ;)

Again I ask... why shoot into the air. When you have a perfectly wonderful Target to aim at?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:07 pm 
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Zakuska wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
Zakuska wrote:
If you have a wife and she has a husband, and your body is ment for each other and not for yourselves as Paul says.

Whats the use of flying solo? Practice makes perfect?


Perhaps the more relevant question is: What is the harm in "flying solo"? Frankly, I find the LDS counsel against masturbation to be utterly ridiculous and indicative of larger (and completely illogical) fears about sex. C'mon, Zak---haven't you ever read Foucault's History of Sexuality?


No need... I'm married to a Brazilian. ;)


Well, congratulations to you then!

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Again I ask... why shoot into the air. When you have a perfectly wonderful Target to aim at?


You miss the point. I asked: "What is the harm?" If you have a wife, terrific; if not, what is the harm?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:31 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:25 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:49 pm 
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Jason Bourne wrote:
I have been discussing the masturbation taboo with a close LDS friend. I also recently read something that my now adult son wrote in a diary when he was about 12 about masturbating. It broke my heart. My discussions with me friend also break my heart when I see the pain he and I both had when we were adolescents and we thought we were awful sinners and perverts because of this activity. We did not know each other then though. I wonder how much torment LDS youth go through over this activity and feeling like they are a major perverted sinner for doing it. I know I did. I know now my son did, horribly. I wish I had done better with him on this issue.

I don't have the heart to share it currently, especially what my son wrote. By the way, this thing he wrote for some reason ended up and a dresser drawer of my wife's and she was cleaning it out and ran across this item. No snooping. It was just there on a few random sheets of paper.

One thing I know, is this is an issue that can be dealt with better, whether one thinks it a sin or totally normal.


How would you deal with the situation if you had it to do over again? You surely can't tell your kids its ok to masturbate given the Church has taken a very staunch and very clear position against it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:34 pm 
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actualy ajax, i wouldn't have any problems being open and honest about such issues. I believe that honesty and open lines of communication on all issues is the most important thing a parent can do. If any kid i have knows im going to be honest about anything he/she comes to me with, they will know i expect that of them.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:34 am 
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I got through all my teenage years without ever being asked about masturbation by any ecclesiastical leader.

That all changed on my mission. In two separate interviews, my second mission president asked me, "Are you masturbating?"

I answered (honestly) "no." Thinking back, when he asked me "are you masturbating?" I should've responded, "No, I'm sitting here talking to you!"

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:30 am 
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I agree though that the only way we have left to combat this obsurd thinking is to joke about it. Many many people (including myself) think that such teachings are both mentaly and sexualy abusive and cause a lot of problems for countless members in the church. I can't think of a better way of combatting it than to show just how funny it is now that i know what i know.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:26 am 
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Masturbation was a taboo practice for most churches. It has only been recently that the more liberal protestant sects do not publically condemn it. And I am sure other protestant sects have it on the back burner as a sin.

But the lds church and the catholic church still condemns masturbation rather strongely. And that is interesting since both chruches claim truth. There must be something in the truth claim. Masturbation is not harmful. But it does mess with other issues that one may go through.

First, just how enjoyable is masturbation? Well...it is enjoyable up to a point. But afterwards, I am not sure just how people feel. Do they feel elated? Do they feel satisfied? Probably not. The feel of the body is satisfied but I cannot say that one feels connected with acts of solitary sex. Maybe just the opposite.

And lets be honest. And I am addressing the ladies here. Do you want your men to be masturbating bears? Probably not. There is a source of competition between masturbation and regular sex when I guy hits a certain age. Maybe young bucks have it in them for two rounds but older guys may find it difficult to compete on both ends.

And so is masturbation harmful? No. But then again, it is not very fulfilling either. It doesn't increase human interaction and connectedness. Acts of solitary sex, however, can increase loneliness, perhaps.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:34 am 
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ajax18 wrote:


How would you deal with the situation if you had it to do over again? You surely can't tell your kids its ok to masturbate given the Church has taken a very staunch and very clear position against it.

It may be good to explain to the child the drawbacks to masturbation and the pluses too. And allow him or her the choice. For after all, we do have free agency. I wouldn't put masturbation on the top of the list of sins. And I do have difficulties in god, getting too concerned about it, considering all the other crap that is in the world.

But they are drawbacks to masturbation. First, a young person might want the real thing to take its place. Two, masturbation can be an addictive habit. Three, it does not make one more connected to the the outside world, since solitary sex is done alone. Fourth, it can miss the with divine plan of creation. Sixth, very few women would accept such a practice as regular part of the marriage ie, very few women want masturbating bears for husbands.

And the positives. First, it allows a person to receive some aspects of sexual release safely. Two, it gives a feeling of pleasure to the body. Three, I just can't think of a third example.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:37 am 
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i would dissagree. There are multiple new studies that have found very good mental and physical benefits from regular masturbation. While i can understand the idea that it doesn't promote a feeling of "togetherness" that can be associated with coupled sex. Its not exactly unhealthy to do it even with a relationship. Within my last serious relationship there where times that i did not feel up to "taking care of her", but still needed release. Though ill admit that I've heard of many people who, even on a regular basis, will only masturbate rather than have sex. I don't know whether to attribute this to unhealthy habits, or to relationship problems.

I guess we need to seperate healthy masturbatory habits from unhealthy ones. As any behavior can be used wrongly, this can be true of masturbation. Regular practice can be considered very healthy. But when you do it to the exclusion of other healthy activities is when it can be considered damaging. You can do this with any behavoir though and I've not seen this to be a major issue within this topic.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:40 am 
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why me wrote:
Masturbation was a taboo practice for most churches. It has only been recently that the more liberal protestant sects do not publically condemn it. And I am sure other protestant sects have it on the back burner as a sin.


It's a taboo because churches want people to get married (so they can have sex). The family is a good way to keep people in a church.

Quote:
But the lds church and the catholic church still condemns masturbation rather strongely. And that is interesting since both chruches claim truth. There must be something in the truth claim.


They could both be wrong.

Quote:
Masturbation is not harmful. But it does mess with other issues that one may go through.


What issues?

Quote:
First, just how enjoyable is masturbation? Well...it is enjoyable up to a point. But afterwards, I am not sure just how people feel. Do they feel elated? Do they feel satisfied? Probably not. The feel of the body is satisfied but I cannot say that one feels connected with acts of solitary sex. Maybe just the opposite.


Isn't it better to do what is natural than to repress what feels natural?

Quote:
And lets be honest. And I am addressing the ladies here. Do you want your men to be masturbating bears? Probably not. There is a source of competition between masturbation and regular sex when I guy hits a certain age. Maybe young bucks have it in them for two rounds but older guys may find it difficult to compete on both ends.


When men can get it from their lady friends, they might not masturbate. Some will (they just have the energy I guess :). Masturbation is more for people who aren't in sexual relationships with another and need an alternative release.

Quote:
And so is masturbation harmful? No. But then again, it is not very fulfilling either. It doesn't increase human interaction and connectedness. Acts of solitary sex, however, can increase loneliness, perhaps.


It's not about fulfillment. It's about release and doing what comes naturally. Naturally people want to procreate. Cutting off the "feeling" of procreation can have physical and mental drawbacks.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:50 am 
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why me wrote:

But they are drawbacks to masturbation. First, a young person might want the real thing to take its place.


Odds are if someone wants to, they can find a partner. I'd actually prefer young kids to be masturbating rather than having premarital sex. Wouldn't you?

Quote:
Two, masturbation can be an addictive habit.


I suppose it can.

Quote:
Three, it does not make one more connected to the the outside world, since solitary sex is done alone.


It's not like people are sitting in their rooms for 12 hours a day doing this thing (although there are probably some who do). The majority probably have as much of a social life as most any other people.

Quote:
Fourth, it can miss the with divine plan of creation.


Again, if people can have sex they will. Masturbation is just backup.

Quote:
Sixth, very few women would accept such a practice as regular part of the marriage ie, very few women want masturbating bears for husbands.


Ladies, response?

Ladies do it too. What about men? Do they want masturbating sows (to go along with the analogy. A female bear is a sow).

Quote:
And the positives. First, it allows a person to receive some aspects of sexual release safely. Two, it gives a feeling of pleasure to the body. Three, I just can't think of a third example.


3) Improved sense of self-worth
4) Physical benefits
5) Psychological benefits
6) Safe alternative for young people to premarital sex


And no one has addressed the point of church leaders telling people what they can and can't do in their private. Any LDS want to take a crack at whether Packer should be making "little factory" speeches when he isn't a doctor?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:06 am 
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Oh, i just remembered that i should use my favorite argument on the "naturalness" of masturbation before it even comes up. (Which i know will) There have been sonograms and intronatal video that has shown prenatal babies repeatedly touching and masturbating themselves. even up to half an hour. Even before their genitalia are completely formed. When this occurs, there is a sharp increase in many chemicals in the brain that have been attributed to proper developement.

There was also another study that checked the statistical chances of mental illness and masturbation. Those that didn't, (or claimed not to) had a marked increase in mental disorders across the board.

What im trying to get to here is, its a very healthy activity that can have good repercussions if taught how to use it properly. When the taboos are placed on it, it becomes something that must be done underground and many illicit feelings surround it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:31 am 
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Mister Scratch wrote:
Zakuska wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
Zakuska wrote:
If you have a wife and she has a husband, and your body is ment for each other and not for yourselves as Paul says.

Whats the use of flying solo? Practice makes perfect?


Perhaps the more relevant question is: What is the harm in "flying solo"? Frankly, I find the LDS counsel against masturbation to be utterly ridiculous and indicative of larger (and completely illogical) fears about sex. C'mon, Zak---haven't you ever read Foucault's History of Sexuality?


No need... I'm married to a Brazilian. ;)


Well, congratulations to you then!

Quote:
Again I ask... why shoot into the air. When you have a perfectly wonderful Target to aim at?


You miss the point. I asked: "What is the harm?" If you have a wife, terrific; if not, what is the harm?

Spilling it on the floor makes God mad.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:45 am 
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ajax18 wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
I have been discussing the masturbation taboo with a close LDS friend. I also recently read something that my now adult son wrote in a diary when he was about 12 about masturbating. It broke my heart. My discussions with me friend also break my heart when I see the pain he and I both had when we were adolescents and we thought we were awful sinners and perverts because of this activity. We did not know each other then though. I wonder how much torment LDS youth go through over this activity and feeling like they are a major perverted sinner for doing it. I know I did. I know now my son did, horribly. I wish I had done better with him on this issue.

I don't have the heart to share it currently, especially what my son wrote. By the way, this thing he wrote for some reason ended up and a dresser drawer of my wife's and she was cleaning it out and ran across this item. No snooping. It was just there on a few random sheets of paper.

One thing I know, is this is an issue that can be dealt with better, whether one thinks it a sin or totally normal.


How would you deal with the situation if you had it to do over again? You surely can't tell your kids its ok to masturbate given the Church has taken a very staunch and very clear position against it.



I am dealing with it now with my last child that is entering adolescence. And I think I choose not to share how I am dealing with it because I am sure I will be trounced upon by some if I do. Leave it at this. I do not teach that it is a grevious sin.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:36 am 
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Bond...James Bond wrote:
why me wrote:
Masturbation was a taboo practice for most churches. It has only been recently that the more liberal protestant sects do not publically condemn it. And I am sure other protestant sects have it on the back burner as a sin.


It's a taboo because churches want people to get married (so they can have sex). The family is a good way to keep people in a church.

It's not about fulfillment. It's about release and doing what comes naturally. Naturally people want to procreate. Cutting off the "feeling" of procreation can have physical and mental drawbacks.

I think that we agree more than we disaree. But I don't think that masturbation is something that just comes naturally. It needs to be taught before it can be experienced. The issue of masturbation and the lds and the catholic faith has more to do with god's plan of procreation and not with building families to attend church. And as far as becoming a masturbating bear even when married, I do think that this is possible and it can compete inside a marriage, especially if one is addicted to masturbation. Hwever, masturbation is normally a solitary act and in this, it does not add to connection but lessens it. Is it natural? Well, I suppose that it isn't unnatural. But as one older man told me once.: 'Why me, I have found that after one has masturbated, the sense of loneliness is still there'. True enough.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:40 am 
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Jason Bourne wrote:

I am dealing with it now with my last child that is entering adolescence. And I think I choose not to share how I am dealing with it because I am sure I will be trounced upon by some if I do. Leave it at this. I do not teach that it is a grevious sin.

And that is a smart move on your part. I don't think that it is a grevious sin. But I suppose that it can get at of hand. There needs to be a limit to masturbation or, it will rule young life.


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