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 Post subject: How Much Are LDS Apologists Paid?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:40 pm 
Master Mahan

Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 5604
[Note: this is a branch-off from GoodK's "Outing Anonymous Posters" thread]

In an absolute bombshell of a post, GoodK, the child of a "top-flight" LDS apologist, has revealed that, in fact, LDS apologists are paid to engage in apologetics. This is absolutely, utterly stunning. All of us have long been told that these "stalwart faithful" aren't compensated at all!! In fact, here is an email from DCP, denying this very strenuously:

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Young University, as are all other professors and staff at the University (including those who are not Latter-day Saints). Thus, at best, I'm indirectly paid by the Mormon Church. This is less dramatic than your formulation, but it’s more accurate.

Second, no part of my salary -- absolutely none, not a dime -- comes from my apologetic undertakings.
(Emphasis added. This was taken from the SHIELDS website, where it was posted in order to try and discredit Infymus.)

But GoodK---who, I'd like to reiterate, is an "insider", i.e., a child of some well-known Mopologist---has totally blown apart this apparent bit of spin:

GoodK wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
Just out of curiosity: Why would this harm a Mopologist's "credibility"/"opportunity"?
For one thing, DCP has said repeatedly that Mopologists do not gain financially in any way for their apologetics activities.


Did he really? What does Dan do besides Mopology?

Of course they gain financially from apologetic activities, even small time contributors to the FARMS review. He should at least be able to admit that.


And this:

GoodK wrote:
Well, I know that people like my Dad are more content with seeing their name in print, and recieving free books or other publications in return (which he usually does, either because he doesn't need the money or would rather have books anyway), but I am postive they all aren't working for free or for "store credit".

I imagine it depends on who it is, celebrities like DCP probably wield bigger paychecks than the Michael Jibson's (the author of the worst FARMS review ever) but I can try and dig up some more information regarding specific salaries.

(this may be hard, now that my cover has been blown)

But yes, the Earth shattering truth is correct, they don't do it for the Love of the Game, well, at least they all don't do it just for the Love of the Game.

I can't believe DCP would even say that, if I wasn't banned from MADB I would ask him to elaborate on how exactly he is compensated for his time ;)


Wow. I am just flabbergasted at all of this. I will anxiously await to hear just how rich DCP has gotten off of his apologetic work.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:57 pm 
Who do you think pays travel expenses when someone like DCP flies to Southern California to do a fireside?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:03 pm 
God
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GoodK wrote:
Who do you think pays travel expenses when someone like DCP flies to Southern California to do a fireside?


Not to mention his speaking tours of the Yukon, Swaziland, Albania and Australia. However in his defense, could one ask for a more fun loving ambassador of Mormonism?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:05 pm 
moksha wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Who do you think pays travel expenses when someone like DCP flies to Southern California to do a fireside?


Not to mention his speaking tours of the Yukon, Swaziland, Albania and Australia. However in his defense, could one ask for a more fun loving ambassador of Mormonism?


I used to feel the same way, until we spoke via discussion board and was a total dick.

Sorenson was much cooler, my favorite Mopologist.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:07 pm 
Master Mahan

Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 5604
GoodK wrote:
Who do you think pays travel expenses when someone like DCP flies to Southern California to do a fireside?


I gather that you're saying that he essentially gets to play the role of the globe-trotting ambassador for Mormon Apologetics, and that he gets to charge it all to the Church's petty cash fund....

Seriously, though: Do you have a sense of how much these folks get paid? Further, can you speak to any specifics vis-à-vis "financial gain"? I.e., how much does a FARMS Review contributor typically get paid? How much does DCP make from apologetics on top of his BYU salary? (In your estimation?)


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Are LDS Apologists Paid?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:08 pm 
Daniel Peterson wrote:
Young University, as are all other professors and staff at the University (including those who are not Latter-day Saints). Thus, at best, I'm indirectly paid by the Mormon Church. This is less dramatic than your formulation, but it’s more accurate.

Second, no part of my salary -- absolutely none, not a dime -- comes from my apologetic undertakings.


I wonder if he considers FARMS an apologetic undertaking. I can forsee a battle over the semantics of this statement.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Are LDS Apologists Paid?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:11 pm 
Master Mahan

Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 5604
GoodK wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:
Young University, as are all other professors and staff at the University (including those who are not Latter-day Saints). Thus, at best, I'm indirectly paid by the Mormon Church. This is less dramatic than your formulation, but it’s more accurate.

Second, no part of my salary -- absolutely none, not a dime -- comes from my apologetic undertakings.


I wonder if he considers FARMS an apologetic undertaking. I can forsee a battle over the semantics of this statement.


Yeah, I wondered the same thing. For example, when he uses the word "salary" is he referring only to what he's paid for his professorial activities at BYU? Is what he's paid by FARMS considered (at least in his own mind) to be something other than "salary"---e.g., does he consider it honorarium, or something like that?

I mean, you are certain that these guys are drawing checks specifically for apologetics, right?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:15 pm 
Mister Scratch wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Who do you think pays travel expenses when someone like DCP flies to Southern California to do a fireside?


I gather that you're saying that he essentially gets to play the role of the globe-trotting ambassador for Mormon Apologetics, and that he gets to charge it all to the Church's petty cash fund....

Seriously, though: Do you have a sense of how much these folks get paid? Further, can you speak to any specifics vis-à-vis "financial gain"? I.e., how much does a FARMS Review contributor typically get paid? How much does DCP make from apologetics on top of his BYU salary? (In your estimation?)


Well, I am saying that, as well as speculating how much of the trip is dedicated to church things vs. apologetic things. It seems silly to fly a DCP type figure out to california from utah for a fireside on the atonement...

I have no clue regarding his exact salary and where the line is drawn between FARMS and BYU pay. I also am waiting to hear back from a friend at BYU regarding his specific role there, as he seems to have a lot of free time to post at MADB.

I highly doubt he gets paid to post online, but if he considers writing for FARMS a apologetic venture, he gets paid for his apologetics.


Last edited by GoodK on Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Much Are LDS Apologists Paid?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:20 pm 
Mister Scratch wrote:
I mean, you are certain that these guys are drawing checks specifically for apologetics, right?


I'm certain at least DCP does. Pretty sure Midgley does. Sorenson probably does, although he is pretty old and I don't know much about his career prior to FARMS.

Is he implying that the church gets the money from book sales? Or that FARMS operates on a not-for-profit basis?

I am equally blown-away that he would deny getting compensated for writing for FARMS.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Are LDS Apologists Paid?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:24 pm 
Master Mahan

Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 5604
GoodK wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
I mean, you are certain that these guys are drawing checks specifically for apologetics, right?


I'm certain at least DCP does. Pretty sure Midgley does. Sorenson probably does, although he is pretty old and I don't know much about his career prior to FARMS.

Is he implying that the church gets the money from book sales? Or that FARMS operates on a not-for-profit basis?


I think that's what's been implied for years. Mopologists such as DCP, John Lynch, Scott Gordon, juliann, and whomever else have always pretty much maintained that they are all "volunteers," keeping the whole enterprise afloat via their own charitable natures. (Granted: FAIR may be more of a "volunteer" organization than FARMS.)

As to your latter remark: Are you saying that FARMS is a money-making venture? Because that's every bit as mindblowing as the revelation that DCP gets paid to engage in apologetics.

Quote:
I am equally blown-away that he would deny getting compensated for writing for FARMS.


Yes, it seems he's been caught in a rather brazen and spectacular lie....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:25 pm 
God
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:23 am
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Let us not anticipate too much by way of Mopologist exposure on the basis of GoodK's statements. For a start, children do not generally have a systematic knowledge of their parents' finances.

Although I find DCP an uncongenial phenomenon - since he is the living counter-example to my cherished belief that a university education tends to produce people with a greater than average aptitude for the unfettered search for truth - I doubt whether he is stupid enough tell a flat lie about his salary.

If he and other Mopologists are seeing any of the folding green stuff, I should think that much of it comes to them by way of comfortable expenses paid for travel on speaking engagements to exotic locations, combined with what academics call 'per diems', that is, essentially, speaking fees.

BUT - the interesting thing would be to find out whether contributing an article for FAIR/FARMS attracts a fee. If that turned out to be the case, it would illuminate yet another difference between normal academic publication in peer-reviewed journals (for which no fee is paid) and the world of Mopology. We do know that it is not disputed that generous expenses were recently offered to 'LDS scholars' who were prepared to spend part of a summer at BYU churning out more apologetic pabulum. But does simply publishing with FAIR/FARMS attract a fee? That would be very interesting to know.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Are LDS Apologists Paid?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:28 pm 
God
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 1671
Location: Elsewhere
Mister Scratch wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:
Young University, as are all other professors and staff at the University (including those who are not Latter-day Saints). Thus, at best, I'm indirectly paid by the Mormon Church. This is less dramatic than your formulation, but it’s more accurate.

Second, no part of my salary -- absolutely none, not a dime -- comes from my apologetic undertakings.


I wonder if he considers FARMS an apologetic undertaking. I can forsee a battle over the semantics of this statement.


Yeah, I wondered the same thing. For example, when he uses the word "salary" is he referring only to what he's paid for his professorial activities at BYU? Is what he's paid by FARMS considered (at least in his own mind) to be something other than "salary"---e.g., does he consider it honorarium, or something like that?

I mean, you are certain that these guys are drawing checks specifically for apologetics, right?

GoodK is just like you, Scratchy. He doesn't know s*** from Shinola.

Then again, that's never stopped you from turning a turd into a meal, has it?



Once again, classic Scratch. I only hope to one day be in a position to properly rebuke you in a manner much more effective than that attempted on McCraney.

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... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:34 pm 
Chap wrote:
Let us not anticipate too much by way of Mopologist exposure on the basis of GoodK's statements. For a start, children do not generally have a systematic knowledge of their parents' finances.

Although I find DCP an uncongenial phenomenon - since he is the living counter-example to my cherished belief that a university education tends to produce people with a greater than average aptitude for the unfettered search for truth - I doubt whether he is stupid enough tell a flat lie about his salary.

If he and other Mopologists are seeing any of the folding green stuff, I should think that much of it comes to them by way of comfortable expenses paid for travel on speaking engagements to exotic locations, combined with what academics call 'per diems', that is, essentially, speaking fees.

BUT - the interesting thing would be to find out whether contributing an article for FAIR/FARMS attracts a fee. If that turned out to be the case, it would illuminate yet another difference between normal academic publication in peer-reviewed journals (for which no fee is paid) and the world of Mopology. We do know that it is not disputed that generous expenses were recently offered to 'LDS scholars' who were prepared to spend part of a summer at BYU churning out more apologetic pabulum. But does simply publishing with FAIR/FARMS attract a fee? That would be very interesting to know.


I have no clue how much my parents make. But I have been exposed to FARMS since I was a teenager, and do have a pretty good idea what I am talking about.

It seems stupid to imply that you are writing and publishing books, which are sold to members, not given away, for nothing. Keep in mind, these books aren't even on the radar in the real world, so the pie, however it is cut, probably isn't too big for any one person.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:35 pm 
God
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Chap:

Quote:
Although I find DCP an uncongenial phenomenon - since he is the living counter-example to my cherished belief that a university education tends to produce people with a greater than average aptitude for the unfettered search for truth ...

That's right, Chap. The more educated the person, the less likely s/he is to fall for all that Mormon crap.

Unfortunately for your "cherished belief," it encounters exceptions everywhere, doesn't it? Not hardly just DCP, is it? Why, there are highly educated people all over the place who still somehow find Mormonism believable. How could that be? Maybe they didn't get the right kind of education, huh? Maybe you could set them straight.

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... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:36 pm 
Master Mahan

Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 5604
Chap wrote:
Let us not anticipate too much by way of Mopologist exposure on the basis of GoodK's statements. For a start, children do not generally have a systematic knowledge of their parents' finances.

Although I find DCP an uncongenial phenomenon - since he is the living counter-example to my cherished belief that a university education tends to produce people with a greater than average aptitude for the unfettered search for truth - I doubt whether he is stupid enough tell a flat lie about his salary.


Could be. But his blanket statement to Infymus certainly raises a number of questions. He seemed quite emphatic in his denial, and yet here we have an insider account claiming exactly the opposite. Again: it could just be a matter of semantics. Perhaps The Good Professor will turn up shortly in order to explain himself?

Quote:
If he and other Mopologists are seeing any of the folding green stuff, I should think that much of it comes to them by way of comfortable expenses paid for travel on speaking engagements to exotic locations, combined with what academics call 'per diems', that is, essentially, speaking fees.

BUT - the interesting thing would be to find out whether contributing an article for FAIR/FARMS attracts a fee.


According to GoodK, authors of these articles---even, for heaven's sake, the rinky-dink book reviews!---are compensated financially.

Quote:
If that turned out to be the case, it would illuminate yet another difference between normal academic publication in peer-reviewed journals (for which no fee is paid) and the world of Mopology. We do know that it is not disputed that generous expenses were recently offered to 'LDS scholars' who were prepared to spend part of a summer at BYU churning out more apologetic pabulum. But does simply publishing with FAIR/FARMS attract a fee? That would be very interesting to know.


I'm equally interested in learning:
---whether or not the peer reviewers are paid. (My guess? Yes, they are.)
---who signs the FARMS checks (e.g., is it a GA?)
---how much money DCP is getting paid to do this stuff
---How much $$$ they receive from ancillary stuff such as book sales (ala Paul Dunn)
---Etc., etc., etc.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Are LDS Apologists Paid?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:38 pm 
Master Mahan

Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 5604
William Schryver wrote:
GoodK is just like you, Scratchy. He doesn't know s*** from Shinola.

Then again, that's never stopped you from turning a turd into a meal, has it?



Once again, classic Scratch. I only hope to one day be in a position to properly rebuke you in a manner much more effective than that attempted on McCraney.


Oh, do you actually know something then, Will? How much are the apologists paid? Inquiring minds want to know!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:40 pm 
Master Mahan

Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 5604
GoodK wrote:
I have no clue how much my parents make. But I have been exposed to FARMS since I was a teenager, and do have a pretty good idea what I am talking about.

It seems stupid to imply that you are writing and publishing books, which are sold to members, not given away, for nothing. Keep in mind, these books aren't even on the radar in the real world, so the pie, however it is cut, probably isn't too big for any one person.


Yes, this certainly casts a wholly new light on all those posts from Bill Hamblin and DCP, where they are trumpeting their new books. I guess they've got to squeeze in the promotional spots where they can, eh?

BTW, GoodK: you've been adducing mainly the money which would have been earned from book sales.... Do you know whether LDS apologists are paid for any other activities? I.e., is DCP just paid, flat out, to be Mopologist Numero Uno? Or is he being paid primarily for his writings in books and in the FARMS Review?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:41 pm 
William Schryver wrote:
Chap:

Quote:
Although I find DCP an uncongenial phenomenon - since he is the living counter-example to my cherished belief that a university education tends to produce people with a greater than average aptitude for the unfettered search for truth ...

That's right, Chap. The more educated the person, the less likely s/he is to fall for all that Mormon crap.

Unfortunately for your "cherished belief," it encounters exceptions everywhere, doesn't it? Not hardly just DCP, is it? Why, there are highly educated people all over the place who still somehow find Mormonism believable. How could that be? Maybe they didn't get the right kind of education, huh? Maybe you could set them straight.


Certainly there are smarter people than DCP, to rest your faith on.

I mean, Francis Collins, Mr. Human Genome, claims to believe in Jesus Christ and was convinced of the trinity while on a nature hike.

What a flimsy argument for Mormonism... "Smart people believe in it!"


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Are LDS Apologists Paid?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:44 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:23 am
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Location: On the imaginary axis
William Schryver wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:
Young University, as are all other professors and staff at the University (including those who are not Latter-day Saints). Thus, at best, I'm indirectly paid by the Mormon Church. This is less dramatic than your formulation, but it’s more accurate.

Second, no part of my salary -- absolutely none, not a dime -- comes from my apologetic undertakings.


I wonder if he considers FARMS an apologetic undertaking. I can forsee a battle over the semantics of this statement.


Yeah, I wondered the same thing. For example, when he uses the word "salary" is he referring only to what he's paid for his professorial activities at BYU? Is what he's paid by FARMS considered (at least in his own mind) to be something other than "salary"---e.g., does he consider it honorarium, or something like that?

I mean, you are certain that these guys are drawing checks specifically for apologetics, right?

GoodK is just like you, Scratchy. He doesn't know s*** from Shinola.

Then again, that's never stopped you from turning a turd into a meal, has it?



Once again, classic Scratch. I only hope to one day be in a position to properly rebuke you in a manner much more effective than that attempted on McCraney.


It appears to be accepted that a member of GoodK's family is an LDS apologist of some note, so on that basis it is likely that he/she is not entirely without reason for his/her allegations that money has changed hands in relation to apologetic activity.

Since it appears to have been denied on previous occasions that such apologists receive any compensation for their efforts, and given that Scratch already has considerable (and not perhaps wholly unjustified) doubts about the moral status of some LDS apologists, his frankly expressed strong interest in the matter seems reasonable and proportionate. Of course the whole thing may still turn out to be a red herring.

Meanwhile, your post seems to have no content at all, apart from being an impotent and ineffectual attempt to vent your spleen somehow. Of course to most normal people the concluding power fantasy in your post is just a little sad. LDS males really are excited about what they will do when they get to be gods, aren't they? What a silly idea it is.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:46 pm 
Mister Scratch wrote:
BTW, GoodK: you've been adducing mainly the money which would have been earned from book sales.... Do you know whether LDS apologists are paid for any other activities? I.e., is DCP just paid, flat out, to be Mopologist Numero Uno? Or is he being paid primarily for his writings in books and in the FARMS Review?



Ya, I'm not sure exactly. I'll try and find out, could take some time considering the recent events that have taken place.

About other activities, I really doubt anyone gets paid for FAIR stuff. Does FAIR see any cash in anyway?

The cool thing about my dad, even if he comes across as a blowhard sometimes, is he doesn't deny stuff like that. He would tell me flat out if he was being paid to do something for the church. He would also tell me if he knew how much FARMS contributors get paid, so I'll ask him if he knows any specifics.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Are LDS Apologists Paid?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:47 pm 
Chap wrote:
Meanwhile, your post seems to have no content at all, apart from being an impotent and ineffectual attempt to vent your spleen somehow. Of course to most normal people the concluding power fantasy in your post is just a little sad. LDS males really are excited about what they will do when they get to be gods, aren't they? What a silly idea it is.


Ouch. Skippy, do you have a B*** slap smiley?


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