The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Physics Guy is a real physicist who also believes in God. It would not surprise me in the least if he generally agreed with the quote. It would also not make me think any less of him as a physicist or as a person. And if the Heisenberg quote is accurate, it doesn’t make me think less of him as a scientist. Neither does it persuade me that his God exists.
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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huckelberry wrote:
Exiled wrote:You're so conspiratorial EAllusion. 4 chan for democrats anyone?What's your proof of this supposed authoritarianism that is going to force us into some sort of fascist government? Is it just presumed like you claimed it was with Clinton's utterly baseless Russian puppet claims she recently made? If it is true as you claim, how do we deal with it? Should a democratic party force come in and bring the very authoritarianism you supposedly hate to stop the Trump authoritarianism? How about we deal with the issues people want, get a people's candidate, sware off of corporate money and vote out this Trump clown in 2020? Voter turnout should easily beat Trump, if the democrat super delegates can go against their corporate donors.

Exilded, Corporations are a large and important reality of America or the larger industrial world. Are you sure it is a good idea to avoid their money and influence? (aside from the consideration that that cannot happen no matter how long one pouts about it)

There is a reason anti-trust laws are on the books and at one time they were enforced. One can have a king controlling everything or one can have a cartel of corporations controlling everything. It seems to be the same thing at a certain point. This is why too big to fail should never be in our lexicon. This is why we should distrust corporate money in our elections. Corporations just want to make money and progressively at our expense. Over the last 40 years, income distribution has gone to the top at the expense of the rest of us. Corporate influence wants to keep that going. Hence, we should distrust it. Our goals ought to be to reverse the trend of the income distribution gravy train that has enriched the few at the expense of the many. This is the main goal, or should be, that continually gets obscured by corporate controlled narratives.
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Religious people love to claim that atheists turn religious all the time. Why not? They don't feel the need to back up any of their other claims; why bother proving this one?

What they fail to understand is that some people don't talk themselves into comfortable beliefs. They let the evidence dictate what to believe, and since the evidence is never going to favor god belief, these people will always remain sensible from that perspective.

Children believe in gods and such. Adults have moved on. Unless you're reverting to your diaper days in retirement, you're likely never going to assume god belief again.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Res Ipsa wrote:It would also not make me think any less of him as a physicist or as a person. .

That guy believes that god will never allow humans to become extinct. I wonder what his views on stem cell research and human cloning are. In his own field he believes that god somehow caused the Big Bang in a singularity and thinks that science ends at the Big Bang.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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EAllusion wrote:This is the thread in which we watch American democracy fall into ruin.

"Automation could replace up to 800 million jobs by 2035: Bank of America Merrill Lynch"

"The race to develop artificial intelligence technology could also have geopolitical implications. China is taking the promise of artificial intelligence seriously. That’s why Bank of America is expecting some big changes to the current trade war between the U.S. and China that has persisted for almost two years.

“We believe the current trade war will transition towards a tech war in the 2020s, which will see a new "arms race" between the U.S. and China to reach national superiority in technology over the long term vis-à-vis quantum computing, big data, 5G, artificial intelligence, electric vehicles, robotics, and cybersecurity etc,” they wrote."

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/automati ... 10646.html

And the only candidate with a real solution is polling very low.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:It would also not make me think any less of him as a physicist or as a person. .

That guy believes that god will never allow humans to become extinct. I wonder what his views on stem cell research and human cloning are. In his own field he believes that god somehow caused the Big Bang in a singularity and thinks that science ends at the Big Bang.

Would you be so kind as to link to the first statement?

As to the other two, there are lots of believing scientists, and it would not be unusual for them to believe God was responsible for the Big Bang. I don’t think that makes them bad people or bad scientists. We have no evidence of what came before the inflationary period, and science currently tells us we won’t get any. So I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that the science of cosmology stops at that point.

I’ve read lots of PG’s posts, and I’ve found his approach to religion to be thoughtful, nuanced, and flexible. He’s much more thoughtful and reasonable than some atheists I’ve encountered. I disagree with him about the existence of God, but agreeing with me is not a requirement for being a good person or a good scientist.
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Res Ipsa wrote:Would you be so kind as to link to the first statement?

He is a christian. Human extinction isn't compatible with christian doctrine.

Res Ipsa wrote:As to the other two, there are lots of believing scientists, and it would not be unusual for them to believe God was responsible for the Big Bang. I don’t think that makes them bad people or bad scientists. We have no evidence of what came before the inflationary period, and science currently tells us we won’t get any. So I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that the science of cosmology stops at that point.

Some christian scientists (especially Mormons) do not believe god caused the Big Bang. According to bio logos,"In addition, such “apologetic” use of the Big Bang ran against Lemaître’s rejection of concordism and against his defense of the independence of science and faith. Lemaître appealed to the scientific advisor of the pope, who persuaded Pius XII to avoid the apologetic use of his cosmology."

https://biologos.org/articles/georges-l ... e-universe

"According to Crawley, Mgr Lemaître was not happy with Pope Pius XII’s belief that the book of Genesis had been vindicated by his cosmological discoveries, and that “Fiat Lux!” (“Let there be light!”) coincided with his Big Bang theory. This was not because he rejected Genesis but because he felt the two disciplines, theology and science, should be studied separately without requiring mutual confirmation."

https://catholicherald.co.uk/commentand ... d-science/

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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People who identify as Christian have a wide range of viewpoints. Perhaps if you got to know a few Christians and really listened to what they say, you might move away from your black and white thinking about Christians. Besides, why are you dictating what PG must believe when he’s right here on the boards. Anyway, thanks for confirming my suspicion that he hadn’t started that here.

As to the rest, I don’t know who you’re arguing with, but it’s not me. Some scientists take a philosophical stance that science and religion are two unrelated activities. If one is doing science, then don’t mix in religion. If one is doing religion, then don’t do science. That’s why the guy in the article urged the Pope not to use the Big Bang theory as a religious apologetic.

But that doesn’t tell us how he privately thinks about the Big Bang and God as creator of the heavens and the earth. Everybody’s brain works hard to make sense out of the info it has, and I doubt that any person who sees both the Big Bang and God significant can stop his brain from thinking about how the two relate.

Incidentally, how does a Mormon scientist who accepts the Big Bang theory view Gods relationship to the Big Bang theory?
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Res Ipsa wrote:Incidentally, how does a Mormon scientist who accepts the Big Bang theory view Gods relationship to the Big Bang theory?

For many Mormon scientists the Big Bang was just an event and god had nothing to do with it.

Res Ipsa wrote:People who identify as Christian have a wide range of viewpoints. Perhaps if you got to know a few Christians and really listened to what they say, you might move away from your black and white thinking about Christians.

What christian denomination is open to the possibility of human extinction?

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Incidentally, how does a Mormon scientist who accepts the Big Bang theory view Gods relationship to the Big Bang theory?

For many Mormon scientists the Big Bang was just an event and god had nothing to do with it.

Here's an interview with a Mormon astronomer who believes the Big Bang was God creating the universe.

https://rationalfaiths.com/science-big-bang/

I've also run into discussions of the multi-verse being consistent with eternal progression, with each individual universe being created by its god. That certainly implies that the God of our universe created our universe through the Big Bang.

Can you refer me to a Mormon scientist who has said that God had nothing to do with the Big Bang?

Res Ipsa wrote:People who identify as Christian have a wide range of viewpoints. Perhaps if you got to know a few Christians and really listened to what they say, you might move away from your black and white thinking about Christians.

Doubting Thomas wrote:What christian denomination is open to the possibility of human extinction?

I didn't say anything about Christian denominations. I'm talking about people. I've had discussions with Christians who were of the opinion that if humans were stupid enough to destroy themselves through war or environmental catastrophe, that God wouldn't save us from ourselves. They hoped he would. But they were doubtful he would. People who identify as Christian have a much wider range of views on all sorts of theological questions than I'd ever imagined when I was a Mormon. (Even Mormons have a a much wider range of views on all sorts of issues than I'd imagined back when I was a Mormon.)

To understand what individual people really believe, you can't rely on the labels.
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Res Ipsa wrote: Can you refer me to a Mormon scientist who has said that God had nothing to do with the Big Bang?

A Mormon cosmologist believes "the big bang is this random chaotic thing."

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/u ... mology.pdf

Some apologists do believe the Big Bang was a random event like a supernova for example.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote: Can you refer me to a Mormon scientist who has said that God had nothing to do with the Big Bang?

A Mormon cosmologist believes "the big bang is this random chaotic thing."

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/u ... mology.pdf

Some apologists do believe the Big Bang was a random event like a supernova for example.

DT, you are misreading what the author is saying. He is discussing scientific criticisms of the original or "Hot" big bang theory. He is saying that, under the hot big bang theory as originally hypothesized, the "bang" would have been a chaotic and random event. But when we look at certain actual data, it is inconsistent with a chaotic, random event. In other words, he's saying that the theory was inconsistent with the evidence -- not that he believes that the process that created the universe was, in fact, random and chaotic.

This and other problems with the hot big bang theory are well known scientific objections. The original hot big bang theory has been replaced by inflationary theory, which inflationary theory, some versions of which imply infinite creation of daughter or bubble universes. I found articles arguing that such a multi-verse is consistent with the LDS notion of eternal progression, with humans that progress to godhood, each creating his own universe.

I reviewed the astronomers and cosmologists on Mormon Scholars Testify. I googled "Mormon scientist big bang god" Nowhere did I find even a hint of a claim that God had nothing to do with the Big Bang. If this is a universal, or even a general, belief among Mormon scientists, they're keeping it really quiet.

ETA: EAllusion or Shades, would you mind moving this discussion of what LDS scientists believe to new thread. It's a derail of the topic.
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Exiled wrote:
huckelberry wrote:Exilded, Corporations are a large and important reality of America or the larger industrial world. Are you sure it is a good idea to avoid their money and influence? (aside from the consideration that that cannot happen no matter how long one pouts about it)

There is a reason anti-trust laws are on the books and at one time they were enforced. One can have a king controlling everything or one can have a cartel of corporations controlling everything. It seems to be the same thing at a certain point. This is why too big to fail should never be in our lexicon. This is why we should distrust corporate money in our elections. Corporations just want to make money and progressively at our expense. Over the last 40 years, income distribution has gone to the top at the expense of the rest of us. Corporate influence wants to keep that going. Hence, we should distrust it. Our goals ought to be to reverse the trend of the income distribution gravy train that has enriched the few at the expense of the many. This is the main goal, or should be, that continually gets obscured by corporate controlled narratives.

Exiled, much of what you say here I completely agree with. Anti Trust is a valuable example of a general principal that free enterprise only remains free in the context of a strong central government which blocks possible abuse of power by business organizations. Smaller as well as large organizations can abuse people, transactions and the environment. Larger organization have more power to protect their own actions.

The idea of too large to fail reflects the idea that the failure of some organization would have such large negative economic consequences that very large numbers of ordinary people would be seriously injured. It is a bit of a tricky judgement call to determine when that should apply. Perhaps more careful application of antitrust could help avoid that dilemma from arising. Yet if a large enough group of interrelated banks or investment fail the results can be bad for the entire economy.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Res Ipsa wrote:I reviewed the astronomers and cosmologists on Mormon Scholars Testify. I googled "Mormon scientist big bang god" Nowhere did I find even a hint of a claim that God had nothing to do with the Big Bang. If this is a universal, or even a general, belief among Mormon scientists, they're keeping it really quiet.

ETA: EAllusion or Shades, would you mind moving this discussion of what LDS scientists believe to new thread. It's a derail of the topic.

Okay. Some Mormon apologists do not believe god created the universe. They interpret Abraham 4-5 as the creation of the Earth, not the universe. By definition the word "universe" means everything.
Last edited by DoubtingThomas on Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Mormon Trashumanists believe god is an extraterrestrial. I do like the idea that god is an extraterrestrial, but there is simply no evidence for that.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Looks like our democracy is fighting back. Despite three Trump visits to Loosiana, a Democrat retains to Governor’s mansion.

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In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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The guy was an incumbent, lmao is this a shock?
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Res Ipsa wrote:I googled "Mormon scientist big bang god" Nowhere did I find even a hint of a claim that God had nothing to do with the Big Bang.

A Mormon astronomer said, "The biblical account is a remarkably peaceful story. By contrast, the big bang is a story of incredible violence, involving inconceivable forces and energies. It seems extremely unlikely that these two stories describe the same event, especially since the Bible deals specifically with objects and conditions on the earth. To read universe and big bang into the biblical creation account requires a spectacular leap of logic....Universes that bubble up from the multiverse might differ greatly from ours in their force constants or natural laws. If so, most would quickly disappear, and only a very few would have properties that allow for the formation of atoms, stars, life, and intelligence." http://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/view ... ontext=msr

It doesn't sound that he believes god created our universe.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:I googled "Mormon scientist big bang god" Nowhere did I find even a hint of a claim that God had nothing to do with the Big Bang.


A Mormon astronomer said, "The biblical account is a remarkably peaceful story. By contrast, the big bang is a story of incredible violence, involving inconceivable forces and energies. It seems extremely unlikely that these two stories describe the same event, especially since the Bible deals specifically with objects and conditions on the earth. To read universe and big bang into the biblical creation account requires a spectacular leap of logic....Universes that bubble up from the multiverse might differ greatly from ours in their force constants or natural laws. If so, most would quickly disappear, and only a very few would have properties that allow for the formation of atoms, stars, life, and intelligence." http://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/view ... ontext=msr

It doesn't sound that he believes god created our universe.


DT, I'm going to start with a technical nitpick here. In your quote, you splice together with your ellipsis unrelated sentences that are separated by 17 or 18 pages. That's a misleading way of representing what the paper says. It implies that the two sentences are part of the same thought. They aren't. Your quote should look like this:

A Mormon astronomer said: "The biblical account is a remarkably peaceful story. By contrast, the big bang is a story of incredible violence, involving inconceivable forces and energies. It seems extremely unlikely that these two stories describe the same event, especially since the Bible deals specifically with objects and conditions on the earth. To read universe and big bang into the biblical creation account requires a spectacular leap of logic."

He also said: "Universes that bubble up from the multiverse might differ greatly from ours in their force constants or natural laws. If so, most would quickly disappear, and only a very few would have properties that allow for the formation of atoms, stars, life, and intelligence."


That tells the reader that it's you who has connected the two passages, and not the author. I don't think you meant to be misleading, but the form of your quote was misleading, nonetheless.

Nothing in what you quoted gives any hint about the author's opinion as to whether God created the universe. To see that, it helps to pay attention to the context of the quoted sentences. The entire paper is a rebuttal to a book published by two Christian authors. This quote from that paper nicely sums up the relevant part of the Christians' argument:

The Big Bang represents the origin of all matter and energy, even of physical space and time themselves. . . . Therefore, to hold that matter/energy are eternal or that God is the physical product of a beginningless progression is irreconcilable with the theory. The problem posed by the Big Bang for Mormon theology is especially severe, not merely because the Big Bang theory supports creation ex nihilo, but because the Mormon concept of God as an extended material object existing in the universe requires, in connection with Big Bang cosmogony, that God himself (or his progenitors) came into being ex ni- hilo. Thus, Big Bang cosmogony is a veritable dagger at the throat of Mormon theology. (p. 146)
See page 282 of the paper you linked.

Your first quote is one of many specific responses to that argument. Here is your quote in context:

4. Copan and Craig unjustifiably conflate the creation account in Genesis 1:1 with the idea that the entire universe originated by creatio ex nihilo. “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth”—so opens the creation story in the majestic prose of the King James Version of the Bible. From the start of the Christian era, the theological discussion of the world has always been focused on the earth and its associated heaven (the celestial sphere), which constituted the known world of the early church fathers.

The biblical account is a remarkably peaceful story. By contrast, the big bang is a story of incredible violence, involving inconceivable forces and energies. It seems extremely unlikely that these two stories describe the same event, especially since the Bible deals specifically with objects and conditions on the earth. To read universe and big bang into the biblical creation account requires a spectacular leap of logic.


So, all this says is that the creation account in Genesis is an account of creation of the earth, not the universe. It says absolutely nothing about what the author's beliefs are about the relationship between God and the creation of our universe.

The second sentence comes from a section of the paper that is simply a general explanation of what multi-verse theories are. Again, no hint of the relationship between the various multi-verse theories and God.

This is one of the papers I read as a result of my Google search. The purpose of the paper is to (1) refute the claim in the book that the Big Bang is a death knell for LDS theology; and (2) show that nothing in the field of cosmology is inconsistent with LDS theology.

It also says this:

A Mormon cosmology ought to relate Latter-day Saint doctrines of God, spirits, revelation, and resurrection to the physical world. All truth must come together, but of course that will happen only in God’s time. After we have understood and obeyed the commandments al- ready given, we may receive more light. Clearly we have far to go.

Despite writings by several Latter-day Saint authors (including the groundbreaking book by Erich R. Paul,33 a few other books and articles,34 contributions in the book Of Heaven and Earth,35 and this present article), no well-defined field of Latter-day Saint cosmology exists. Perhaps our knowledge of the physical universe and of Latter- day Saint theology will never be sufficiently complete to allow it in this life.
pp.307-08.

When you say something like: Mormons believe God didn't create the universe, that's a claim that there is a well-defined, uniformly held Mormon cosmology. The author of this article says the exact opposite. He says there isn't one, and may never be one.
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

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Res Ipsa wrote: no well-defined field of Latter-day Saint cosmology exists


Exactly! Because there is no well-defined Mormon cosmology he can believe what ever he wants about the origin of the universe.

Res Ipsa wrote:Nothing in what you quoted gives any hint about the author's opinion as to whether God created the universe. .


It is a hint, Mormon scientists will not say in public, "god did not create the universe". He said, "Universes that bubble up from the multiverse might differ greatly from ours in their force constants or natural laws. If so, most would quickly disappear, and only a very few would have properties that allow for the formation of atoms, stars, life, and intelligence."

Why would he believe that god (or the gods) create universes that quickly disappear? The guy clearly believes in the multiverse, but he would be an idiot if he thinks the gods only make "very few" universes that "allow for the formation of atoms, stars, life, and intelligence".

Res Ipsa wrote:When you say something like: Mormons believe God didn't create the universe


I said, "Some christian scientists (especially Mormons) do not believe god caused the Big Bang" and "Some Mormon apologists do not believe god created the universe." Which is true.

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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by Res Ipsa »

You left out this:
Doubting Thomas wrote:For many Mormon scientists the Big Bang was just an event and god had nothing to do with it.

That was your answer to my specific question about how Mormon scientists view the relationship between God and the Big Bang. Since then, you've moved the goal posts a couple of times, but you haven't provided evidence of one LDS scientist or apologist who says "I don't believe God created the universe" or "God had nothing to do with the Big Bang." As I've consistently said, Mormons have a wide range of views on lots of issues. It's certainly possible that there is a scientist or apologist who holds the beliefs. That's absolutely consistent with what I've said. What I questioned was your statement about "many Mormon scientists." So far, you haven't come up with any, let alone many.

Now you're claiming that these mystery scientists won't say what they believe in public. That directly contradicts what you said at the beginning of the post: "Because there is no well-defined Mormon cosmology he can believe what ever he wants about the origin of the universe." If he can believe whatever he wants, why does he have to hide what he believes?

I've looked for the evidence myself, and you've had lots of opportunity to provide evidence. I see no need to continue to further derail this thread.
Last edited by Res Ipsa on Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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