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 Post subject: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:42 pm 
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In one of the more bizarre explanations of Mountain Meadows Massacre that I’ve seen, Dr. Peterson is now proffering the idea that the Massacre was a consequence of prejudice that Mormons had faced during their journey westwards:

Sic et Non wrote:
That said, though, I do not think that the Church, as such, is really connected with it. Nor do I think that it was essentially matter of religion. Let me clarify that: Some have tried to portray the Mountain Meadows Massacre as an expression of religious zeal and fanaticism. However, in my judgment, that is to misread it. It was an expression of fear. It was connected with religion in the sense that those Mormon militiamen, some of whom had experienced religious persecution and being driven from state to state, all of whom knew about the persecutions in New York and Ohio and Missouri and Illinois, feared for their homes and their families. They were afraid, with a U.S. army already headed for Utah territory to put down a non-existent “Mormon rebellion,” that they were about to be driven from their homes yet again.But where were they supposed to flee? In coming to settle the Great Basin West, they had already left the United States. When would it ever end?

Huh. I wonder how these musings square with the scholarship one can find in, say, the work of Will Bagley or Turley et al.? For DCP to be correct, you would have to accept the premise that these southern Utah LDS (and elsewhere, he says they do not even deserve to be called “Latter-day Saints”), basically said, “Huh. This Fancher Party? Heading west? They might kick us out of our homes, just like those bastards back east! We better slaughter them all, including women and children!” This, friends, was the thought spurred on by Peterson’s visit to Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Of course, the subtext to this is his own feelings about the criticism that has been directed towards him: “When will it ever end?” is something he has said about this board on more than one occasion.

Interesting, in any case.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:19 pm 
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He'll say pretty much anything, no matter how illogical, to defend the church's pretended superiority.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:26 pm 
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It’s been a long time since I read about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but hadn’t BY been giving fiery speeches about fighting the army and not being driven out of their homes again? And weren’t there rumors that the wagon train was from Missouri and that the people in it were bragging about killing Mormons? And how does fear motivate folks into slaughtering a wagon train that was just passing through?

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:28 am 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
And weren’t there rumors that the wagon train was from Missouri and that the people in it were bragging about killing Mormons?

I'm pretty sure those were started after the massacre was over in order to assuage guilty consciences.

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And how does fear motivate folks into slaughtering a wagon train that was just passing through?

Oh, the perpetrators weren't afraid of the wagon train. They were afraid of what would happen to them (death) should they refuse the order to participate.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:08 am 
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Thanks, Shades.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:11 am 
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There’s now an excellent resource that Peterson could have used to educate himself on the topic before posting...
Quote:
On September 11, 1857, some 50 to 60 local militiamen in southern Utah, aided by American Indian allies, massacred about 120 emigrants who were traveling by wagon to California. The horrific crime, which spared only 17 children age six and under, occurred in a highland valley called the Mountain Meadows, roughly 35 miles southwest of Cedar City. The victims, most of them from Arkansas, were on their way to California with dreams of a bright future. For a century and a half the Mountain Meadows Massacre has shocked and distressed those who have learned of it. The tragedy has deeply grieved the victims’ relatives, burdened the perpetrators’ descendants and Church members generally with sorrow and feelings of collective guilt, unleashed criticism on the Church, and raised painful, difficult questions. How could this have happened? How could members of the Church have participated in such a crime?

https://mountainmeadowsmassacre.com/

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:35 am 
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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:29 am 
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Wow, the first time Ditto Copy Pasterson comes up with an original idea rather than plagiarize one it just happens to be a real stupid one.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:02 am 
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The Mormons were committing treason and terrorism in the run up to Mountain Meadows. Their own viciousness, I think, surprised them. BY's famous "Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little" is an excuse for murdering men, women, and many children.

There have been generations of lies, especially about those who were murdered. Yeah, just what Jesus Christ would have done. Killed kids and lied about it, nay, bragged about how they showed those "Mericats". They hated the United States because the United States would not roll over for their 'prophet' and his lies and crimes. They hate it still, honestly. They vowed vengeance on it in the temple until the 1920s. Mormonism is deeply unAmerican, with its hungering after hierarchies and monarchies and dividing everyone over its own fantasies.

DCP's defense puts him on the side of the murderers. And there he should remain. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:23 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
The Mormons were committing treason and terrorism in the run up to Mountain Meadows. Their own viciousness, I think, surprised them. BY's famous "Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little" is an excuse for murdering men, women, and many children.

There have been generations of lies, especially about those who were murdered. Yeah, just what Jesus Christ would have done. Killed kids and lied about it, nay, bragged about how they showed those "Mericats". They hated the United States because the United States would not roll over for their 'prophet' and his lies and crimes. They hate it still, honestly. They vowed vengeance on it in the temple until the 1920s. Mormonism is deeply unAmerican, with its hungering after hierarchies and monarchies and dividing everyone over its own fantasies.

DCP's defense puts him on the side of the murderers. And there he should remain. :twisted:


I can't read the thread because it makes me so angry but I skimmed down to find your comment and I agree. It makes me so angry how the church refuses to apologize and attacks gays. That's one of the reasons why I have my deplorable thread down in telestial attacking the temple rites. I'm angry! I just want to lash out and this makes for a vent.

ugh.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:37 am 
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Quote:
They were afraid, with a U.S. army already headed for Utah territory to put down a non-existent “Mormon rebellion,” that they were about to be driven from their homes yet again.But where were they supposed to flee? I

Geez, Peterson. So a couple family groups heading to California were threats to take their homes? That's why the Mormons corralled them, shot at them, and eventually slaughtered them? That is some extremely lazy thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:26 am 
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Sic et Non wrote:
It was an expression of fear. It was connected with religion in the sense that those Mormon militiamen, some of whom had experienced religious persecution and being driven from state to state, all of whom knew about the persecutions in New York and Ohio and Missouri and Illinois, feared for their homes and their families. They were afraid, with a U.S. army already headed for Utah territory to put down a non-existent “Mormon rebellion,” that they were about to be driven from their homes yet again.But where were they supposed to flee? In coming to settle the Great Basin West, they had already left the United States. When would it ever end?


You could maybe make this argument for the initial siege, but it's still a huge stretch. Why would they disguise themselves as indians if they were acting out of fear and self defense? But even if we allow for the initial siege being an act of self defense, it does not even begin to explain or justify the massacre that occurred on September 11.

However, I do agree with the point DCP makes here, but likely not for the reason he intended.

Sic et Non wrote:
One of the things that fascinates me, however, is its illustration of the fact that even good people can be brought, under the right (wrong) circumstances, to do terrible things. These were not thugs or habitual criminals who carried out the killings. They were pious farmers and pioneers. The Massacre is, therefore, an admonition to us to watch constantly, lest we fall into an analogous trap. Few of us will become involved in mass murder, of course, but we might well be lured by peer pressure, by a boss’s expectations, or whatever to engage in unethical acts, or to join in injustice or unkindness that we would not do on our own.


Steven Weinberg summed it up more succinctly - "For good people to do bad things, it takes religion."

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:54 am 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
Sic et Non wrote:
It was an expression of fear. It was connected with religion in the sense that those Mormon militiamen, some of whom had experienced religious persecution and being driven from state to state, all of whom knew about the persecutions in New York and Ohio and Missouri and Illinois, feared for their homes and their families. They were afraid, with a U.S. army already headed for Utah territory to put down a non-existent “Mormon rebellion,” that they were about to be driven from their homes yet again.But where were they supposed to flee? In coming to settle the Great Basin West, they had already left the United States. When would it ever end?

You could maybe make this argument for the initial siege, but it's still a huge stretch. Why would they disguise themselves as indians if they were acting out of fear and self defense? But even if we allow for the initial siege being an act of self defense, it does not even begin to explain or justify the massacre that occurred on September 11.

However, I do agree with the point DCP makes here, but likely not for the reason he intended.

Sic et Non wrote:
One of the things that fascinates me, however, is its illustration of the fact that even good people can be brought, under the right (wrong) circumstances, to do terrible things. These were not thugs or habitual criminals who carried out the killings. They were pious farmers and pioneers. The Massacre is, therefore, an admonition to us to watch constantly, lest we fall into an analogous trap. Few of us will become involved in mass murder, of course, but we might well be lured by peer pressure, by a boss’s expectations, or whatever to engage in unethical acts, or to join in injustice or unkindness that we would not do on our own.

Steven Weinberg summed it up more succinctly - "For good people to do bad things, it takes religion."

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” --Voltaire

Committing atrocities is a test of faith. How many other American religions required violent oaths in their sacred space and the formation of paramilitaries? The Mormons pretend that these were defensive responses and yet wherever they went they went as conquerors and colonists, disregarding the former inhabitants. All the Mormons could see and think about are themselves. They have not changed much since.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:16 am 
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Here is a great article on Mountain Meadows Massacre:

https://www.americanheritage.com/what-happened-mountain-meadows

Beware TBM's, this article doesn't paint the church and its leaders as humbly superior, like you always want to have done. Instead, it treats them as any human being should be under the horrible circumstances of Mountain Meadows Massacre and the subsequent, extremely shameful, on-going cover-up.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:29 am 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
In one of the more bizarre explanations of Mountain Meadows Massacre that I’ve seen, Dr. Peterson is now proffering the idea that the Massacre was a consequence of prejudice that Mormons had faced during their journey westwards:

Sic et Non wrote:
That said, though, I do not think that the Church, as such, is really connected with it. Nor do I think that it was essentially matter of religion. Let me clarify that: Some have tried to portray the Mountain Meadows Massacre as an expression of religious zeal and fanaticism. However, in my judgment, that is to misread it. It was an expression of fear. It was connected with religion in the sense that those Mormon militiamen, some of whom had experienced religious persecution and being driven from state to state, all of whom knew about the persecutions in New York and Ohio and Missouri and Illinois, feared for their homes and their families. They were afraid, with a U.S. army already headed for Utah territory to put down a non-existent “Mormon rebellion,” that they were about to be driven from their homes yet again.But where were they supposed to flee? In coming to settle the Great Basin West, they had already left the United States. When would it ever end?

Huh. I wonder how these musings square with the scholarship one can find in, say, the work of Will Bagley or Turley et al.? For DCP to be correct, you would have to accept the premise that these southern Utah LDS (and elsewhere, he says they do not even deserve to be called “Latter-day Saints”), basically said, “Huh. This Fancher Party? Heading west? They might kick us out of our homes, just like those bastards back east! We better slaughter them all, including women and children!” This, friends, was the thought spurred on by Peterson’s visit to Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Of course, the subtext to this is his own feelings about the criticism that has been directed towards him: “When will it ever end?” is something he has said about this board on more than one occasion.

Interesting, in any case.


Hey Doc,

This is indeed interesting...DCP wrote "expression of fear?" How about "expression of revenge?"

In 1857 the Mormons more or less owned the Utah Territory, and I doubt there was much fear at this point...and any fear that was building was due to not losing plural marriage via politics (soon to come Edmond's Act), not by a small wagon train of immigrants moving through their Southern border.

But taking the former at face value, in regards to DCP, it makes perfect sense. DCP's mindset is one of fear and paranoia. He "reasons" and process information coming from a critic, in terms of being the picked on victim. If we were to go back and look at his "writing", most certainly share this victims mindset. You are his stalker. He was fired by a "purge"...etc, etc. There is always a boogie man in his closet.

Being LDS, as most of us know here, demands a certain amount of this "expression of fear" attitude; it is the only way to avoid dealing and processing certain truths and realities. However, DCP takes this to another level, and it certainly shows in his blogs and rants.

In his mind, his religious view is true and he is always right...which is fine, but he adds because of this, everyone is out to get me, and he writes with an expression of fear.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:44 am 
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Markk wrote:
But taking the former at face value, in regards to DCP, it makes perfect sense. DCP's mindset is one of fear and paranoia. He "reasons" and process information coming from a critic, in terms of being the picked on victim. If we were to go back and look at his "writing", most certainly share this victims mindset. You are his stalker. He was fired by a "purge"...etc, etc. There is always a boogie man in his closet.

Being LDS, as most of us know here, demands a certain amount of this "expression of fear" attitude; it is the only way to avoid dealing and processing certain truths and realities. However, DCP takes this to another level, and it certainly shows in his blogs and rants.

In his mind, his religious view is true and he is always right...which is fine, but he adds because of this, everyone is out to get me, and he writes with an expression of fear.


Brilliant. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:05 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Markk wrote:
But taking the former at face value, in regards to DCP, it makes perfect sense. DCP's mindset is one of fear and paranoia. He "reasons" and process information coming from a critic, in terms of being the picked on victim. If we were to go back and look at his "writing", most certainly share this victims mindset. You are his stalker. He was fired by a "purge"...etc, etc. There is always a boogie man in his closet.

Being LDS, as most of us know here, demands a certain amount of this "expression of fear" attitude; it is the only way to avoid dealing and processing certain truths and realities. However, DCP takes this to another level, and it certainly shows in his blogs and rants.

In his mind, his religious view is true and he is always right...which is fine, but he adds because of this, everyone is out to get me, and he writes with an expression of fear.


Brilliant. :wink:


Part of growing up is to learn, take, and be accountable for your actions, words, and deeds. That dude was held accountable exactly one time in his life, and that was in 2012.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:58 pm 
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Tator wrote:
Wow, the first time Ditto Copy Pasterson comes up with an original idea rather than plagiarize one it just happens to be a real stupid one.

But Tator, this stupid idea of Pasterson's is not original. I heard such explanation from the professor at BYU Winter Semester 1980 in a Utah history class.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
In one of the more bizarre explanations of Mountain Meadows Massacre that I’ve seen, Dr. Peterson is now proffering the idea that the Massacre was a consequence of prejudice that Mormons had faced during their journey westwards:

Sic et Non wrote:
That said, though, I do not think that the Church, as such, is really connected with it. Nor do I think that it was essentially matter of religion. Let me clarify that: Some have tried to portray the Mountain Meadows Massacre as an expression of religious zeal and fanaticism. However, in my judgment, that is to misread it. It was an expression of fear. It was connected with religion in the sense that those Mormon militiamen, some of whom had experienced religious persecution and being driven from state to state, all of whom knew about the persecutions in New York and Ohio and Missouri and Illinois, feared for their homes and their families. They were afraid, with a U.S. army already headed for Utah territory to put down a non-existent “Mormon rebellion,” that they were about to be driven from their homes yet again.But where were they supposed to flee? In coming to settle the Great Basin West, they had already left the United States. When would it ever end?

Huh. I wonder how these musings square with the scholarship one can find in, say, the work of Will Bagley or Turley et al.? For DCP to be correct, you would have to accept the premise that these southern Utah LDS (and elsewhere, he says they do not even deserve to be called “Latter-day Saints”), basically said, “Huh. This Fancher Party? Heading west? They might kick us out of our homes, just like those bastards back east! We better slaughter them all, including women and children!” This, friends, was the thought spurred on by Peterson’s visit to Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Of course, the subtext to this is his own feelings about the criticism that has been directed towards him: “When will it ever end?” is something he has said about this board on more than one occasion.

Interesting, in any case.

This thought process is very akin to the one that likely leads Peterson to support Donald Trump.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:26 pm 
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Quote:
Markk
But taking the former at face value, in regards to DCP, it makes perfect sense. DCP's mindset is one of fear and paranoia. He "reasons" and process information coming from a critic, in terms of being the picked on victim. If we were to go back and look at his "writing", most certainly share this victims mindset. You are his stalker. He was fired by a "purge"...etc, etc. There is always a boogie man in his closet.

Being LDS, as most of us know here, demands a certain amount of this "expression of fear" attitude; it is the only way to avoid dealing and processing certain truths and realities. However, DCP takes this to another level, and it certainly shows in his blogs and rants.

In his mind, his religious view is true and he is always right...which is fine, but he adds because of this, everyone is out to get me, and he writes with an expression of fear.


This appears to me to be a very profound psychological insight into not only Peterson, and his public postings, but the reason why he doesn't find Midgley, Kiwi57, or Smoot objectionable, and in turn does not dismiss their own peculiar fear based anaylses and comments. The apologists live in fear on perhaps more fronts than we fathom actually. Not only for their religion, but for their own peace of mind, their own testimonies, their own superiority, etc. Nothing about Mormonism appears to me these days to have that healthy bouncin and behavin hair......

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 Post subject: Re: DCP: Mountain Meadows Massacre Caused by “Anti-Mormons”
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:49 pm 
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DCP is still using pre-1999 Mountain Meadows Massacre apologetic excuses, that does not match what the current narrative is out of the Church History Department especially after the Turley book was published. If he thinks he is going to do some talks on the subject he better get caught up on the current scholarship.

His argument about "fear" is a gross over simplification of what went on, which almost all historians have avoided in doing.


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