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 Post subject: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:19 pm 
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Log ... eGrdc/edit

I just found this from browsing on the NOM site. This author has done his homework. I rather enjoyed this immensely! The church has done itself no service in putting its essay on the papyri on its official page, even though they do move it around and make it near impossible to find without your own seer stone. This essay is just awesome, as it shows the church is actually in over its head, even with its putative revelations from God on this subject. And the apologists have not been able to help out the prophets. Gosh if the church just had a Urim and Thummim like Joseph did...

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:43 pm 
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And nobody has said boo about the missing jackal snout on the printing plate. The apologists haven't said anything and there is no talk at all. I'm telling you they don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole.

The ____ is going to hit the fan! Just watch.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:30 pm 
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I liked this interesting comment "Another nagging problem is that the Book of Abraham makes repeated references to the word Pharaoh, a title that was not adopted until over 1000 years after Abraham’s time. It also uses Pharaoh as a personal name, apparently unaware that it is a title. This is a serious mistake that is equivalent to someone thinking that Abraham Lincoln's first name was “President.” In facsimile 3 Joseph Smith translated the name of one of the characters as “King Pharaoh”, which is the equivalent of “King King.” But even worse, the person he’s talking about in the drawing isn’t even a man, it’s the goddess Isis."

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:50 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
. Gosh if the church just had a Urim and Thummim like Joseph did...

Actually they have the same ordinary rock seer stone that Joseph used as the U&T, in fact I believe they have 3 of the rocks Joseph Smith claimed were seer stones.

They are obviously afraid to use them because as the Book of Mormon says, unauthorized use means death. From Mosiah 8:18

Quote:
Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called c


You would think at Nelson's age he would give them a try, I mean, what has he got to lose? Or maybe he thinks his lighted pen and note pad are his own U&T

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
And nobody has said boo about the missing jackal snout on the printing plate. The apologists haven't said anything and there is no talk at all. I'm telling you they don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole.

The ____ is going to hit the fan! Just watch.


It’s mentioned in the Book of Abraham wiki article. Did you add that bit?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:22 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
It’s mentioned in the Book of Abraham wiki article. Did you add that bit?
- Doc


No it wasn't me. I wonder if Mormon Think did it.

You can be sure that the reason the apologists aren't publicly addressing this newly discovered problem is because the they don't want to knowing full well it's a can of worms they can't explain. OMFG. I can't imagine what must be going through John Gee's mind. Surely it must bother him a great deal. It might even be the last straw in breaking his shelf because in the end he's an Egyptologist and as such there is a special kind of loyalty towards the craft. He's going to have to figure out for himself how to justify this and stay loyal to Joseph Smith. Good luck with that, John Gee.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:28 pm 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
In facsimile 3 Joseph Smith translated the name of one of the characters as “King Pharaoh”, which is the equivalent of “King King.” But even worse, the person he’s talking about in the drawing isn’t even a man, it’s the goddess Isis."


The final straw of course is the FACT that there is no royal Cartouche to bear a king's name and that is simply something that never, ever, happens in ancient Egypt. The Egyptian religion REQUIRES the royal name be encircled about within the Cartouche. That's an absolute requirement. No exceptions!

Joseph Smith was wrong on all counts. His Explanations are uninspired and are nothing more than lies rolling off his lips.

I so testify.

Amen.

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3
Includes a startling new discovery!

Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I


Last edited by Shulem on Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:29 pm 
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What is the history associated with the discovery of the plate and the first recognition of the snout having been chiseled away?


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:49 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
What is the history associated with the discovery of the plate and the first recognition of the snout having been chiseled away?


This is the first recognition or the discovery:

A few questions for Shulem

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:11 pm 
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2017 was the first discovery?


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:14 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
2017 was the first discovery?


Yep, it was my Christmas present to the church.

:biggrin:

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Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:48 pm 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
I liked this interesting comment "Another nagging problem is that the Book of Abraham makes repeated references to the word Pharaoh, a title that was not adopted until over 1000 years after Abraham’s time.


A glaring anachronism that goes to show that Joseph Smith doesn't know what he has talking about and also the HOLY SPOOKY GHOST is a complete dumb ass! The SPOOKY GHOST of Mormonism doesn't know jack about Egyptology.

:twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Do you know who Kellan Hatch is?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:56 pm 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
Do you know who Kellan Hatch is?


Not me.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:19 pm 
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Shulem,

Do you suspect someone removed Anubis' head from the papyrus since they clearly knew it was a jackal head as evidenced by the snout being chiseled off the plate?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Shulem,

Do you suspect someone removed Anubis' head from the papyrus since they clearly knew it was a jackal head as evidenced by the snout being chiseled off the plate?

- Doc


Remove the head from papyrus Facsimile No. 3? No, I don't think they did that.

THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3 WEBSITE wrote:
In 1856 two of the Mormon mummies and some papyri were sold to the St. Louis Museum and later examined by Professor Gustavus Seyffarth where the exhibit was put on display and later taken to Chicago in 1863. Egyptologist Seyffarth provides the first professional description of the Mormon papyrus to almost certainly include the lost vignette of Facsimile No. 3 which features Hôr (Horus) being ushered into the presense of Osiris:

CATALOGUE OF THE ST. LOUIS MUSEUM

"According to Prof. Seyffarth, the papyrus roll is not a record, but an invocation to the Deity Osiris, in which occurs the name of the person, (Horus,) and a picture of the attendant spirits, introducing the dead to the Judge, Osiris"

Here we have the papyrus of Facsimile No. 3 being described in wonderful fashion! The man Horus is being brought into the divine presence of Osiris and the "attendant spirits" (Anubis, Maat, and Isis) are ever present. Professor Seyffarth was familiar with the Egyptian language using the most recent conventions thanks to scholars abroad -- and he certainly was able to recognize Egyptian deities.

Professor Seyffarth also wrote:

"The museum contains . . . . Egyptian mummies, statuettes, papyrus scroll . . . . Visitors will find also some large fragments of the Egyptian paprus scrolls with hieratic (priestly) inscriptions and drawings representing judgment of the dead many Egyptian gods and sacred animals with certain chapters from the old Egyptian sacred books." (Daily Missouri Democrat, St. Louis, Sept. 10, 1856)

Notice there is no mention of a missing jackal snout. I have to assume the papyrus depicted the god in his usual form. Anubis ALWAYS has a jackal head, no exceptions. I don't trust Joseph Smith's Facsimile presentation. I believe he pulled a fast one based on everything I understand at this point. What he planned to do with the papyrus in explaining a discrepancy between it and the Facsimile is anyone's guess. Maybe he just kept it locked in his office while biding his time. No one would ever know better. ​​

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Hrm. How did what's-his-nuts know to place a jackal head in the original lead scene?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:08 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Hrm. How did what's-his-nuts know to place a jackal head in the original lead scene?

- Doc


I assume it was copied faithfully from the original vignette of Facsimile No. 3 which I believe had a full jackal head intact. But Smith ordered the snout hacked out. I suspect the apologists are going to argue for the idea that there was a lucuna or that the head on the original papyrus was damaged so they had no way of knowing that there was a snout. But the evidence shows otherwise. The apologists are in for a real run for their money on this one. They are going to have to come to terms that the image was tampered with.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:49 pm 
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I love this from Kellan Hatch commentary:

Quote:
Another telling detail is that Joseph misidentified an Egyptian god as a slave simply because he appears to have black skin, and he had the printmaker remove Anubis’ jackal snout to make the image better fit his interpretation, something that is apparent when you examine the printer’s plates. Joseph correctly deduced that the names of the characters are written in the columns above their heads, yet he entirely failed in his claims of translating those names.


I cannot say when this was written or first published.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:10 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Hrm. How did what's-his-nuts know to place a jackal head in the original lead scene?

- Doc


I assume it was copied faithfully from the original vignette of Facsimile No. 3 which I believe had a full jackal head intact. But Smith ordered the snout hacked out. I suspect the apologists are going to argue for the idea that there was a lucuna or that the head on the original papyrus was damaged so they had no way of knowing that there was a snout. But the evidence shows otherwise. The apologists are in for a real run for their money on this one. They are going to have to come to terms that the image was tampered with.


Edit: I had a brain fart. That part of the original scroll is missing, no?

That’s what I’m saying, though. The original vignette was based on the scroll which is missing Anubis’ head, no? How did the the guy who created the lead printing plate, the one you pointed out where Anubis’ snout was chiseled off, know to originally include a snout? I’m saying if he knew about the snout, then the scroll had Anubis in tact, and it follows if Joseph Smith had the maker remove the snout Joseph Smith would’ve removed the incriminating piece on the scroll where Anubis’ head should’ve been.

What do you think?

- Doc

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Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:25 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

Edit: I’m had brain fart. That part of the original scroll is missing, no?

That’s what I’m saying, though. The original vignette was based on the scroll which is missing Anubis’ head, no? How did the the guy who created the lead printing plate, the one you pointed out where Anubis’ snout was chiseled off, know to originally include a snout? I’m saying if he knew about the snout, then the scroll had Anubis in tact, and it follows if Joseph Smith had the maker remove the snout Joseph Smith would’ve removed the incriminating piece on the scroll where Anubis’ head should’ve been.

What do you think?

- Doc


The original vignette papyrus for Facsimile No. 3 is missing. It's no where to be found. It almost certainly burned in the museum fire and was described by the curator which I quoted in an earlier post. It certainly looks like they had the original Facsimile No. 3 based on what he said.

Reuben Hedlock carved a proper head of Anubis on the first go-around. I'm sure of it because we can see how the snout was scraped off and the head has to be an animal head because the eye is an animal eye and there is an animal ear. ONLY Joseph Smith could have ordered and approved the snout removal. It falls on HIM and him alone. What did he do with the original vignette which shows a jackal head in Facsimile No. 3? I don't know. I think he must have locked it up! It was probably kept separate from the rest of the papyrus so that people wouldn't notice the discrepancy. Somehow it become separated from the rest of the collection and was sold off and found its way to the museum where it was later destroyed. You'd think that the original vignettes of Facsimiles 1 & 3 would have remained together seeing they were from the same roll, Book of Abraham. But they got separated somehow and the original Facsimile No. 3 didn't survive.

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