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 Post subject: Zelph Falls Off His Shelf (Answering his Anti-Bible Video)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:24 pm 
Nursery

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:05 pm
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Tanner Gilliland is an Ex-Mormon, returned missionary, and co-host of the Zelph on the Shelf YouTube channel: a highly entertaining and informative Ex-Mormon YouTube channel that combines humor and critical commentary on Mormon beliefs and culture. The following website is NOT an attack on Tanner Gilliland. I consider Tanner to be a very honest and sincere person. I agree with 96% of what he says on his YouTube channel. However, his video "Why I Don't Believe in the Bible" is filled with rather old and dated Atheist arguments that were refuted long ago. Zelph Falls Off His Shelf is my answer to that video.

Tanner Claims versus Facts

Tanner: There is no evidence the Israelites were ever in Egypt
Fact: There is massive evidence Semites were living in Nile Delta region (especially Goshen) for hundreds of years. No evidence "yet" these Semites were called by the name Israelites while they lived in the Delta. Called by Egyptians "Hyysos" and "Kharu" and "Abiru" ("Apiru").

Tanner: Israel never existed until about 500 B.C.: name does not appear before that.
Fact: Name "Israel" first appears on stele (stone monument) by Pharaoh Menerptah, near the Nile Delta, dated to 1200 B.C.. The Egyptian symbol next to the name "Yisrair(L)" has the ancient Egyptian marking for "people/nation" and not the marking for "city/town/place". This stele (stone monument) proves that "Israel" (by that name) as a nation/people (not necessarily as a place) existed at least around 1200 BC.

Tanner: Books of Moses not written by Moses, but based upon unreliable oral histories that change with the retelling.
Fact: Books of Moses were written by Ezra the Scribe about 500 BC, based upon older scrolls he found in the Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity. No evidence these older scrolls were based merely upon oral history. Priests and other Jews were required to learn by memory, word for word, much or all of the Torah, by memory, just like many Muslims learn the entire Quran in Arabic, word by word, by memory. No evidence these oral traditions "change" like modern rumor and story-telling.

Tanner: If there was an Exodus, with all the Plagues, and parting of the Red Sea, Egyptians would have wrote about it.
Fact: They did write about it in The Admonitions of Ipuwer as well as in the judicial record of prince AmunMose (Amenmesse) which we shall quote from.

Tanner: No evidence that Moses ever existed. Egyptian history does not mention any Moses or any Exodus.
Fact: Egyptian judicial papyri from the 19th Dynasty does mention prince AmunMose (or Amenmesse), and his history not only follows the Book of Exodus but also parallels the history of Moses as revealed in the writings of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus. Egyptian records does mention a Pharaoh Setnakhte "chasing out" a group of Kharu (general name for Canaanites and Syrians) from the Nile Delta after the group stole possessions (gold?) from Egyptians and "every man buried his brother" (firstborn dead?). The body of this Pharaoh is "missing" for his royal tomb, or may be an unidentified mummy in the tomb lying in a boat with no sarcophagus (a sign of high disrespect as if he screwed up majorly such as drowning with all his chariots in Lake Tanis--the "Sea of Reeds"). The Admonitions of Ipuwer (19th Dynasty document) does mention various plagues in Egypt that parallel (somewhat) the 10 Plagues of the Book of Exodus.

Tanner: No Egyptian chariots found at bottom of Red Sea
Fact: A few chariot-shaped coral reefs have been photographed by divers (but not brought to service and closely examined due to that is illegal in Egyptian waters) at bottom of the Gulf of Aquaba near Nuwaiba, covered in coral (no proof these are ancient chariots the chariots of Exodus--but they are shaped like ancient Egyptian chariots). Also, the "Red Sea" in Genesis is a mistranslation. Should read "Sea of Reeds" which most likely refers to Lake Tanis in Nile Delta. Lake Tanis has been documented to experience "wind set down" events which clears a portion of Lake Tanis of water, allowing a dry gap that lasts a few hours up to 12 hours. That has been documented. Lake Tanis (now called Lake Manzeleh) has braxkish (party fresh/partly salty) water and is full of millions of reeds. No reeds exist at all in Red Sea nor in its fingers of the Gulf of Suez and the Gulf of Aqaba. Lake Tanis most likely place for "Parting of the Red Sea" by Moses.

Tanner: Israelite architecture in Canaan unlike that of Egyptian, shows Israelites never in Egypt.
Fact: Architecture of Hyksos/Kharu/Abiru in Nile Delta, non-Egyptian, but Canaanite. Canaanite and Israelite language, fashion, and buildings all the same. No reason that Israelites would use Egyptian and not Canaanite architecture in Goshen especially if Goshen was already an established colony of Kharu (Canaanites/Syrians) when they got there.

Tanner: The Book of Exodus mentions several cities in Egypt, such as Pi-Rameses, that did not exist during the time of the Exodus. So, no Exodus could have occurred.
Fact: Pi-Rameses did not exist during the "traditional" date of the Exodus (set by scholars over 200 years ago), but the "New Date" for the Exodus (1200 to 1100 BC.), which "some" Bible scholars and archaeologists favor, the city of Pi-Rameses not only existed but was the Royal City where pharaoh resided with horses and his chariots.

Tanner: Noah's Flood could not have happened because Kangaroos and hundreds of unique species in Australia and South Pacific islands survived the Flood, so how did Noah get all these Australian animals to North Carolina (where Joseph Smith said Noah built his Ark), and then to the top of Mount Ararat in Turkey, and then all of them back to Australia after the flood?
Fact: Massive evidence that a comet hit the Indian Ocean about 2700 to 3000 BC, sent billions of tons of water vapor into the high atmosphere, which came down as rain or snow. Evidence that Flood of Noah was a local flood that happened in the Kingdom of Urartu (now Armenian and southeastern Turkey), centering on Lake Van. Australia was also flooded at this time, but entire continent was never under water. Original Hebrew DOES NOT SAY that entire Planet Earth was flooded, and "all flesh" on Planet Earth died in the Flood save those on the Ark. The original Hebrew refers only to the "land" were Noah lived. Evidence of Iron-age ship remains (in the size of Noah's Ark) on a small mountain 12 miles south of Mount Ararat. Evidence cited.

Tanner: A kind and loving Heaven Father would not kill all His children in a great Flood.
Fact: YHWH is not Heavenly Father, nor the pre-incarnate Jesus either, is not kind and loving! In the Old Testament YHWH says "My name is Terrible". YHWH is said Isaiah to create both light and dark, good and evil. Who YHWH is, is explained in ancient Gnostic literature (which the Catholic Church buried and suppressed) as well a Buddhist scripture (identified as Baka Brahma). Explanation of who YHWH is and what His function is in this Solar System is described in this article below. Explanation of the ELOHIYM (also NOT the Heavenly Father) and what THEIR function is in this Galaxy and what "they" want with human kind.

Tanner: Gospels have been proved wrong, because Ceasar Augustus did not decree a Empire-wide census at the time of the birth of Jesus.
Fact: Yes he did, in 8 BC, and we quote from Augustus' own autobiography in Part Two of this article.

Tanner: Gospels are wrong that say Joseph was required to go to Bethlehem to register for census, because Roman law never required that.
Fact: False. Roman law required that during a census all land-tax had to be paid, and paid in the tax-district where the land was owned by the owner. If Joseph the Carpenter owned land in or around Bethlehem, Roman law required him to show up in person and pay the land-tax to the Publican (Roman tax-collector) in Bethlehem. Evidence shows that Augustus decreed census in late 8 BC.

Also included in this online website:

*Evidence for the Exodus
*Evidence on the true identity of Moses in the ancient Egyptian judicial records
*The true origin of the Story of Adam and Eve (based upon ancient Jewish Midrash about an Egyptian Pharaoh and his Queen)
*Evidence for the Garden of Eden as a literal walled garden in ancient Egypt (not Missouri or Mesopotamia)

As well as...

Explanations from "channeled materials" as to the reason why YHWH sent a flood to destroy the Adamites (not all humans), why Jesus had to die on the Cross to atone for the "original sin" of Adam, and the true identity of the "Elohiym" and the "Watchers" in the Bible and Jewish Apocalyptic Literature.
http://churchofzion.webs.com/0TANNER.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Zelph Falls Off His Shelf (Answering his Anti-Bible Vide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:21 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:14 am
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Admittedly, I haven’t spent any significant amount of time studying the authenticity of the Bible to form an opinion one way or the other to your bullet points. However, I don’t know why humanity even needs the Bible at this point? Throughout history, man has always “interpreted” God based on their knowledge at that time. I see the Bible as an interpretation of God by humans that lacked basic scientific knowledge of how the world works. If the Bible were written today, it would be a vastly different interpretation of God.

My point is, the Bible, even if historical or true, is useless in today’s world because the interpretation of God is so grossly outdated.

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 Post subject: Re: Zelph Falls Off His Shelf (Answering his Anti-Bible Vide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:48 pm 
God
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The website is long on assertion and short on actual references and evidence. It appears to be an extended exercise in apologetics rather than an honest attempt to find the conclusions that best fit the evidence. When the author started talking about chariot shaped coral as evidence of the parting and unparting of the Red Sea, my eyes rolled into the back of my head and I had to gaze up at some chariot shaped clouds in the sky to regain some degree of sensibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Zelph Falls Off His Shelf (Answering his Anti-Bible Vide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:41 pm 
God
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Darrick? Is this you?

Ref: https://bahaiforums.com/threads/the-mus ... cles.7767/

http://mustagath.angelfire.com/GARDENOFATEN.html

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​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: Zelph Falls Off His Shelf (Answering his Anti-Bible Vide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:52 pm 
God
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Sanctorian wrote:
My point is, the Bible, even if historical or true, is useless in today’s world because the interpretation of God is so grossly outdated.

I agree it's outdated to the point where a lot of it is of limited relevance, but I wouldn't go as far as "useless". Lots of Aristotle and Plato and Euclid are outdated but some parts of their writings are still just as sound and profound today as they ever were. In the same way I think one can sift out insights from a lot of ancient scriptures—not just the Bible—that are still keepers.

I think you do have to sift.


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 Post subject: Re: Zelph Falls Off His Shelf (Answering his Anti-Bible Vide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:19 pm 
God

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Res Ipsa wrote:


Looks like we have a match

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 Post subject: Re: Zelph Falls Off His Shelf (Answering his Anti-Bible Vide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:25 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:14 am
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Physics Guy wrote:
Sanctorian wrote:
My point is, the Bible, even if historical or true, is useless in today’s world because the interpretation of God is so grossly outdated.

I agree it's outdated to the point where a lot of it is of limited relevance, but I wouldn't go as far as "useless". Lots of Aristotle and Plato and Euclid are outdated but some parts of their writings are still just as sound and profound today as they ever were. In the same way I think one can sift out insights from a lot of ancient scriptures—not just the Bible—that are still keepers.

I think you do have to sift.


I say “Useless” meaning 99% of the world doesn’t need to extract meaning out of the writings. The same can be said for Aristotle, Plato, and Euclid. The 1% that can are smart enough to repackage the meaning for the rest of us 99% and turn it into an iPhone app for consumption.

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 Post subject: Re: Zelph Falls Off His Shelf (Answering his Anti-Bible Vide
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:46 am 
God
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Okay, yeah. I can agree with that.

There's some interest for some people in tracing where the good bits came from, or in learning how ancient people thought. But those aren't urgent needs for everyone. The distilled app version would be the only thing worth urging on people who hadn't already heard it.


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