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 Post subject: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:24 am 
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Ask almost any christian today what day the Sabbath is and they will almost always reply “Sunday”. This includes most LDS members that I have met. When I follow up that question with, Why do you keep Sunday? The common response is: “Because the people in the Bible began worshiping on the first day after the death and resurrection of Jesus.”

Elder Brigham H. Roberts attempts to support this view is his tract “The Lord’s Day,” citing “evidence” from the New Testament and from studying the practices of the Early Christian Church. His conclusion: There is “at least a strong probability that the change from the seventh to the first day of the week was made by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, after his resurrection; that is perpetuated by His apostles and the early Christian Church; and then, in conclusion, shall cite the revelation referred to which, to the Latter-day Saints, changes this ‘probability’ into fact and confirms with divine sanction our custom of worshiping on the first day of the week. By pursuing this course we shall draw the strong probability to be derived from the scriptures and the practice of the early Church to the support of the revelation referred to, while the revelation, as already indicated, will transform the ‘probability’ of the New Testament scriptures into positive fact.”

Some of you may be wondering what this “revelation” is. I will cover that in a future post, but first……

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
The Bible mentions the first day 8 times in the New Testament: John 20:19, 20; verse 26; Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1, 2, 9; Luke 24:1

Let’s examine each of these passages to see if we can find the evidence for “strong probability” of the switch to first day of week.

KJV: John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

In this passage we find that the Disciples are gathered together on the first day of the week. Because they are gathered together on the first day, this is given reason to believe that they are worshiping on the first day. But we are also told why they are there. The disciple are hiding because they are fearful of the Jews who had just killed Jesus. Thus, they are not there to worship, but rather to hide for fear of their lives.

That said, they are together on the first day so perhaps they are among the first to be keeping the first day sabbath to commemorate Jesus’ resurrection! But wait…..that cannot be, as they do not yet know that Jesus has risen from the dead. It is not until Jesus appears before them and proves that it is indeed really him that they become aware of the miracle.

KJV: Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

The Apostle Paul, in his writings, gives us an abundance of information on how we are to worship as he is setting up Christ’s church on earth. In Acts 20, Paul is preaching in many places and after many long journeys arrives in Troas. We read that the disciples are gathered together, breaking bread, and that Paul is preaching to them on the first day. At a glance, this sounds like a worship service on the first day of the week, furthering the evidence to follow such a practice.

However, more examination is needed. First, it is necessary to understand the time of the day. (Yes, but isn’t that clear from the verse?) Yes it is, but not to us as it was to them back then. We need to remember that in those days they recorded the days as starting on the dark part of the previous. In other words, the beginning of our Monday night was the beginning of their Tuesday and likewise, the beginning of the first day was in those days our Saturday night.

Why does this matter? Because it says that Paul is preparing to depart in the morning (morrow) of the first day. If this was truly the new sabbath day, Paul would not be undertaking such a long treacherous journey on the day of rest. Instead, it would make sense for him to wait until Monday (or our Sunday night). Thus, Paul preaches unto them on the first day until midnight and departs in the morning making this day not indicative of a sabbath.

We should also note that gathering together, the breaking of bread and someone preaching is not exclusive to the sabbath. This is done on other days as well. Act 2:46

KJV: 1 Corinthians 16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Again we find Paul spreading the gospel. Paul is counseling them on their book keeping. Notice that there is no implied meeting time as they are told to lay aside a share of their prosperity so that Paul can send someone back to make a collection to bring back to the saints in Jerusalem. This verse is often used in support of keeping Sunday the sabbath. But is it not revealing that Paul is telling them to do their book keeping on Sunday? After all, why would you do it on the Sabbath when “thou shalt not do any work”?

Three of the final four passages (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1, 2, 9.) explicitly state the first came after the sabbath day. The fourth (Luke 24:1) is telling the same story. The folks in these passages are returning on the first day to anoint Jesus’ body. Returning because they had gone to see the sepulchre where Jesus lay to anoint his body but ran out of time after preparing the the spices and ointments on the preparation day. They then obeyed the commandment and rested on the sabbath day. Then, Mary Magdalene and Mary returned on the first day to anoint Jesus’ body only to find that it was gone!

And that’s it! Every mention of the first day in the New Testament. Now I would ask where is the “strong probability” for the change to the first day in the Bible? Do not all these verses actually support the sabbath being on the seventh day?

“Yet after all this is admitted, and the strength of argument is very great in my judgement, it must still be confessed that it fall somewhat short of being absolutely conclusive. It cannot be made out clearly and positively that Jesus or the apostles by direct, official action authorized the observation of the first day of the week as a day of public worship, dedicated to the service of God, and designed to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath. The most that can be claimed for the evidence her adduced - and it is the strongest if not all that can marshalled in support of the proposition- is that it is probable that such a change was instituted.” - Elder Roberts


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:11 am 
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The Jewish observance was something like sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday.

Emperor Constantine ordered the concatenation of Roman holidays to increase productivity. So the Sabbath was shifted to Mithra's Sunday. That worked out okay because the later early Christians had already begun celebrating the Lord's Day following the Sabbath. I doubt Mithra minded sharing his day.

The yearly birthday party for Jesus was also moved to Mithra's B-Day as well. It was called Sol Invictus, but we now call it Christmas.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:07 am 
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The Sabbath is a man made construct. Nothing else in the world - tides, sunrise, nature, animals, etc differentiate between any given full rotation of the sun. It’s the same on a day that man has designated Monday as it is on a day that man has designated Saturday or Sunday. So if you want your designated period of religious worship (your Sabbath) to be a Wednesday afternoon, I’m sure your God(s) will be cool with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:50 am 
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Hi Moksha, your are right that Constantine was responsible for appropriating Mithra's traditions after becoming the first christian emperor of Rome. This included shifting the Sabbath to Sunday. This was to bring the people together. Also, christians still accused the Jews of killing Jesus and so not worshipping on the jewish Sabbath was just another way to be separate from them.
Perhaps the key point though, is that it was a man and not God who decided to change the day of the Sabbath.

I have a question, I agree that the Sabbath today is a man made construct. Nearly all protestant/christian denominations worship on Sunday. And if you asked any of them why, they likely could not tell you other than that’s just the way it has always been. But the Seventh Day Sabbath was a day appointed by God (not man). He made the day holy and sanctified it. And claims the day to be his, “I also gave them MY Sabbath as a sign between us,” Ezekiel 20:12


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Hi sass.
Do you eat shrimp?
Do you mix fabrics?
Do you cut your hair at the corners of your head?

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.


But at the end of the day, God of the Bible is as man made as Thor, so who cares.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:04 am 
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Hey Sass, I think Emperor Constantine's conversion to Christianity was after he had his In Hoc Signo Vinces moment. Prior to his realization that Christianity had reached critical mass in the empire, he wanted to have less religious holidays to disrupt work in the empire. Combining celebrations seemed the way to go. Choosing the Mithra day probably stemmed from his thinking there were more followers of Mithra than Jesus at that time.

Once the Christians had gained enough dominance in the 5th Century they eliminated their rivals. No more Mithraleans and Antipastoians.

But what if Christianity faltered somehow back in the 3rd Century? Perhaps Joseph Smith would have met the Angel Eusebius or even Mithra and Sol in the sacred Palmyra grove. Pretty powerful speculative sacred allegory, eh?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:50 am 
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Wikapedia can present even in its brief form more information about the Sunday worship. There are a variety of references to worship on Sunday by Christians going back to late first century. It would appear that there may not have been a unified policy. It is also likely Sunday was not considered Sabbath but was considered first day of the week

Constantine unified the practice and it matched up the Mithric practice as well as the Christian one as Moksha has observed.

The Wikapedia article makes the interesting observation that in the first centuries after Constantine Christians did not consider Sunday the Sabbath. They just did not observe Sabbath. The idea of doing Sabbath observation on Sunday arose in the middle ages.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:00 am 
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I don't understand why God wants people to take a day off for the purpose of worshipping Him. Seems a little self indulgent don't you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:32 am 
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In the Jewish tradition the Sabbath is a day of rest, not necessarily a day of worship. Worhip happens on all kinds of days of the week.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:44 am 
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SteelHead wrote:
In the Jewish tradition the Sabbath is a day of rest, not necessarily a day of worship. Worhip happens on all kinds of days of the week.

It is interesting that, for Mormons, the Sabbath isn’t a day of rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:39 am 
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Hi everyone,

I think the interesting thing about the LDS sabbath day is that they believe that God commanded them to worship on Sunday. (According to Doctrine and Covenants 59). The passage mentions "the Lord's day" and "my holy day". I struggle to find how this was interpreted to mean the first day as no where in the Bible is " my holy day" used in reference to anything but the seventh day of the week. And although the Lord's day has generally been attributed to the first day of the week, the Bible at least does not give that interpretation. In fact it is used in reference to seventh day of the week a number times.

Joseph Smith originally kept the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week. Which is perhaps why there was a need for a definitive day.

I also don't want to sound like I am condemning anyone who does not observe the seventh day sabbath. I believe that God will accept your service of love on any day of the week. But if the LDS' claim to be the true church of God then there is one major requirement: "the saints are those who keep my commandments" - Rev. 14:12

I believe that this means all 10 commandments including the 4th. The LDS claim that God has changed his laws (polygamy, Sabbath day, ...) but God says that "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." Psalms 89:34. Does this sound like God would ever change his mind? According to LDS beliefs God is liar.

Again, this thread was meant to debate whether or not Joseph Smith and the Mormon's claims are to be believed. Not to accuse people of breaking the Sabbath


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:43 am 
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SteelHead wrote:
Hi sass.
Do you eat shrimp?
Do you mix fabrics?
Do you cut your hair at the corners of your head?

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.


But at the end of the day, God of the Bible is as man made as Thor, so who cares.


Hi,

I do not eat shrimp as there are dietary recommendations found in the Bible such as not to eat meat at all or to only eat certain kinds of meat. The mixing of fabrics and cutting of hair does not apply to me I do not believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:28 pm 
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Tony Finau is a professional golfer and a Mormon. He works on the Sabbath, is he breaking it?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 2:37 pm 
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sass74139 wrote:
SteelHead wrote:
Hi sass.
Do you eat shrimp?
Do you mix fabrics?
Do you cut your hair at the corners of your head?

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.


But at the end of the day, God of the Bible is as man made as Thor, so who cares.


Hi,

I do not eat shrimp as there are dietary recommendations found in the Bible such as not to eat meat at all or to only eat certain kinds of meat. The mixing of fabrics and cutting of hair does not apply to me I do not believe.



Do you pick and choose which biblical injunctions you follow?

Lev 19:27 KJV
Quote:
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.


Duet 22:11 KJV
Quote:
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:10 pm 
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sass74139 wrote:
I do not eat shrimp as there are dietary recommendations found in the Bible such as not to eat meat at all or to only eat certain kinds of meat. The mixing of fabrics and cutting of hair does not apply to me I do not believe.

The Jewish Kashruth dietary laws would be a no go for me with pizza being non-kosher. Pretty sure God intended for Mozzarella cheese to be eaten with Canadian bacon and pineapple, as well as putting yogurt in a chicken masala curry dish. If Jesus Himself were to make an appearance in New Orleans, he would order the crawfish etouffee for lunch - following the Sunday service at the Salvation Army - at some getaway cafe where He could rub elbows with the publicans and jazz lovers.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:58 am 
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I have a question wrote:
Tony Finau is a professional golfer and a Mormon. He works on the Sabbath, is he breaking it?


I personally think that the way you keep the Sabbath can be a very individual thing. Some people think you shouldn't work at all some think you can do whatever you want. For me it's just about what I do that makes the day special from others and remembering why I am doing it.

In regards to Tony, I did not know he was a Mormon. I've heard many different beliefs about what one should do on the Sabbath from Mormons. Mormons believe that there are exceptions in regards to how you keep the Sabbath. Since golf is Tony's job then they would most likely say that it's okay since his job requires him to work on Sunday.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:12 am 
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Do you pick and choose which biblical injunctions you follow?

Lev 19:27 KJV
Quote:
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.


Duet 22:11 KJV
Quote:
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.


Hi Steelhead, what I had meant by these not applying to me is that these are for specific people for specific reason. The first from Leviticus is referring to the fact that they would cut off hair from certain parts of their body and offer it as offerings to their idols. I do cut my hair but it is not for the purpose of worshipping idols.

The verse from Deuteronomy is specifically referring to what the priest should wear during their ministry, not what I should wear day to day. Also, because this law was meant for priest and because I believe the Bible says there is no more priesthood on this earth (contrary to what Mormons believe) that there are very few people that should be concerned with this command. Perhaps Mormon priest should be though. (Maybe they are)


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:24 am 
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moksha wrote:
sass74139 wrote:
I do not eat shrimp as there are dietary recommendations found in the Bible such as not to eat meat at all or to only eat certain kinds of meat. The mixing of fabrics and cutting of hair does not apply to me I do not believe.

The Jewish Kashruth dietary laws would be a no go for me with pizza being non-kosher. Pretty sure God intended for Mozzarella cheese to be eaten with Canadian bacon and pineapple, as well as putting yogurt in a chicken masala curry dish. If Jesus Himself were to make an appearance in New Orleans, he would order the crawfish etouffee for lunch - following the Sunday service at the Salvation Army - at some getaway cafe where He could rub elbows with the publicans and jazz lovers.


Hi Moksha, that's cool, I am vegetarian myself and maybe I missing out on some great flavors but vegetarians also live on average 7-10 years longer (studies vary). So I chose the latter. Of course you can be healthy and still eat meat. I think the laws in regards to the consumption of meat in the Bible are today not applicable to us as the "old law has passed away". (Meaning Levitical Law).


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:46 am 
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If the Sabbath was one of the signs of Mosaic covenant, and the law is fulfilled in Jesus, why then would sabbath worship be relevant now?

Colossians 2
Quote:
16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.



This is why I think it is funny when various Christian Apologists for the huge set of conflicting christian belief sets show up to bag on Mormonism (In this case I am going to say "7th day Adventist"). They too, have no clothes.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:04 am 
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SteelHead wrote:
If the Sabbath was one of the signs of Mosaic covenant, and the law is fulfilled in Jesus, why then would sabbath worship be relevant now?

Colossians 2
Quote:
16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.



This is why I think it is funny when various Christian Apologists for the huge set of conflicting christian belief sets show up to bag on Mormonism (In this case I am going to say "7th day Adventist"). They too, have no clothes.


The Sabbath was not part of the Law of Moses. The Sabbath existed before man was even created.

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.

The 4th commandment is given as a reminder of this. "remember the sabbath day" and it was given as an eternal covenant. The ten commandments were eternal laws that have existed before they were given to Moses on the tablets.

Remember that Jesus was judged for "breaking the Sabbath" by the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:10; Mark 3:2, John 9:14-16). Does the verse in Colossians written by Paul seem to indicate that the Sabbath was abolished? I would say yes. But when we include it with the rest of Bible including Paul's own works, we are given a much different picture. Even without that, a "Sabbath" at the time would have only thought to be associated with the seventh day of the week in Paul's day. So would Paul have been referring to people being judged for keeping a different sabbath day? If someone was keeping a different day, they themselves would have recognized that they were keeping a "Monday" or a "Tuesday" and would not have called those days Sabbath by name.

I agree that we have to be careful when critiquing other religions, as it is easy to be hypocritical, there are certainly many different variations of beliefs based from the same book. But to say that it is funny that Christians debate theology with other Christians or Mormons in this case, would be to say it is funny for scientist to debate scientific theories which they certainly do. Of course scientist use scientific evidence to debate, but we too use archaeology, geology, history ect.. in support of our arguments. What is wrong with trying to further our understanding through debate that is supported through legitimate forms of research and not baseless claims. Of course, there are those who are just out there to bash certain groups of people, but there are those in every place. My best friends are Mormon, we will occasionally have polite debates and then proceed to go out and enjoy a game of golf.

Haha, yes I am Seventh Day Adventist, but I would go to a different church or no church at all if I thought it was more true. The SDA do not claim to be the "true" church of God, as anyone who keep the commandments are part of Christ's church. We also do not believe that if you do not keep the seventh day or do not do other things the same that that does not exclude you. "It is judged according to what a man knoweth, not according to what he knows not." Adventist also believe that all of our 28 fundamental beliefs and doctrines are fallible because they are simply our interpretation. More information and knowledge may cause us to change them later as we are not perfect, we do not know everything and will not know everything until Jesus returns as the Bible makes very clear. (Admittidly, not all SDA are aware of this)


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism's Sabbath Day
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:20 am 
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sass74139 wrote:
The Sabbath was not part of the Law of Moses. The Sabbath existed before man was even created.

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.

Genesis was written by an Iron Age blogger with an agenda. So the Sabbath was created by a man putting words into God’s mouth.

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