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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:12 pm 
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cwald wrote:
SPG wrote:
So yup, everything is relative. And yup, facts are just illusions of the masses.

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Oh come now. In stead of doing the Jim Carry snicker, show me a fact that isn't illusion.

Requirement: has to be true for all living beings. I


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:25 pm 
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Fact: The earth is a round (spherical) shape.

Fact: Diabetes is a disease in which your blood glucose, or blood sugar, levels are too high.

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Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson


Last edited by cwald on Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:26 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Oh come now. In stead of doing the Jim Carry snicker, show me a fact that isn't illusion.

Requirement: has to be true for all living beings. I

Is it an illusion that you have diabetes?

If so, why do you avoid sweet, sugary Mountain Dew, Coca-Cola, Cold Stone Creamery ice cream, and Cinnabon cinnamon rolls?

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"Belief is driven by psychology, not intelligence."

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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:11 pm 
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Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson


Last edited by cwald on Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:13 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:27 pm 
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cwald wrote:
Fact: The earth is a round (spherical) shape.

Fact: Diabetes is a disease in which your blood glucose, or blood sugar, levels are too high.

Yes, it is an illusion, if a persistent one.

In one case of multiple personalities, one personalty was diabetic and the others were not.


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:36 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Yes, it is an illusion, if a persistent one.

In one case of multiple personalities, one personalty was diabetic and the others were not.

Since your diabetes is a persistent illusion, why do you avoid sweet, sugary Mountain Dew, Coca-Cola, Cold Stone Creamery ice cream, and Cinnabon cinnamon rolls?

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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:37 pm 
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SPG wrote:
cwald wrote:
Fact: The earth is a round (spherical) shape.

Fact: Diabetes is a disease in which your blood glucose, or blood sugar, levels are too high.

Yes, it is an illusion, if a persistent one.

In one case of multiple personalities, one personalty was diabetic and the others were not.

Reference, please.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:02 am 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
SPG wrote:
In one case of multiple personalities, one personalty was diabetic and the others were not.

Reference, please.

Sorry, this was page article 15 years ago, and a doctor I knew claimed his was part of it. Emotional conflicts were resolved and the person went to 'non-diabetic.'

Can't give you more then that? I am "wrong" to believe such a thing is possible?


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:09 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Can't give you more then that? I am "wrong" to believe such a thing is possible?

Yes.

OMG.

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Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:41 pm 
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cwald wrote:
SPG wrote:
Can't give you more then that? I am "wrong" to believe such a thing is possible?

Yes.

OMG.

:lol: SPG's response has to be the best non-CFR of the month.


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:38 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Can't give you more then that? I am "wrong" to believe such a thing is possible?

I didn't assert it wrong to believe such a thing is possible. It is wrong to state it in support of the notion that diabetes or some aspect there of is illusionary without knowing exactly what you are talking about.

I looked for about 30 minutes, and the closest I could find was that the "symptoms" changed when the alter changed. There is a huge difference between having diabetes and experiencing the symptoms of diabetes. We already know from placebo studies that the mind has a significant role in the experiencing of symptoms. But that shouldn't be confused with having the condition.

The factoid contains none of the information we need to evaluate correlation v. causation. Was the patient diagnosed with MPD or DID? Was the patient diagnosed with diabetes? Type 1 or 2? How was the diagnosis made? Was the change in alters documented in the patients records? What were the patient's blood levels before and after the change? Over what time were the blood levels checked? Was the patient treated for diabetes? Was the patient treated for the multiple personalities. How and when? Which symptoms changed and how soon after the change in alters? Was the patient being treated for anything else?

When a doctor sees something unusual and potentially significant when treating a patient, she can publish a case study. A case study would contain the answers to these important questions and lots of others. I haven't found one, but I'm not comfortable that I've done all the searching I could. in the absence of a case study or other direct documentation, I don't think this is worth treating this as any more reliable than an urban legend on the order of the countless claims of the emergency room full moon effect.

But, I thought, we could see if the placebo effect has been studied in the context of diabetes treatment. They have, and there appears to be no placebo effect on blood sugar levels. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10367099 Without a plausible mechanism to communicate from the brain to cells, there is no reason to believe that one alter can have diabetes while others do not.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:15 pm 
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cwald wrote:
SPG wrote:
Can't give you more then that? I am "wrong" to believe such a thing is possible?

Yes.

OMG.

I might get a little preachy here.

Ever heard of the phrase, "Judge not, least you be judged."

When I allow you to believe whatever you want, I allow myself. Consciousness has a way of imposing your beliefs on yourself. You limit what you believe, so you figure you have to limit what I believe.


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:46 pm 
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SPG wrote:
When I allow you to believe whatever you want, I allow myself. Consciousness has a way of imposing your beliefs on yourself. You limit what you believe, so you figure you have to limit what I believe.

Perhaps that is the problem? If a person is interested in discovering the truth, the fastest way towards it is through having their views challenged. Perhaps the problem isn't with an attempt to eliminate belief in the unsustainable as much as avoiding the discomfort with criticism that comes from allowing one's views to be challenged and that becoming part of the process one uses for refining one's understanding?

Personally, I don't want people to allow me to believe what I want in the same way I hope someone would tell me if my zipper was down or if I had something stuck in my teeth. It's nice when it isn't presented too harshly, but I'd much rather have critics than sycophants. Critics are useful.

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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:57 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
But, I thought, we could see if the placebo effect has been studied in the context of diabetes treatment. They have, and there appears to be no placebo effect on blood sugar levels. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10367099 Without a plausible mechanism to communicate from the brain to cells, there is no reason to believe that one alter can have diabetes while others do not.


I use this story about the split personalities because it reflects something I believe. I first heard about it from some co-workers who showed me the article. We had a discussion about Nature vs Nurture. Later I mentioned the case to a doctor of mental stuff (I forget the title) and he was like, "Oh, yes, I was part of that event. It first appeared at some convention and several doctors were instantly interested. They claimed they worked with the patient as a group for a while and he was eventually cured. But they said one of the four personalities definitely diabetic. The personality somehow triggered the insulin resistance.

But, besides all of that. My statement that diabetes is an illusion wasn't so much tied to the our faith and magic thinking. I was thinking more along the lines of cultural abuse of a substance that humans are not supposed to be eating so much of, sugar.

Many people are cutting sugar out of their lives and diabetes is retreating, in some cases, even curing. Meaning the resistance can be reversed. It is so obvious that medical institutions are pushing unhealthy carbs on us so that they can sell us over priced medicine. Many people have died trying to follow their doctors advice, and many have found renewed live by abandoned the ADA recommended system. Even in their reduced diet, they promote to many carbs. Diabetes is the body and nature rebelling against the over use of sugar.

Someone here mentioned even though we might already be at 1000x the amount of sugar we used 1000 years ago, that we might be at 10,000x in another 1000 years. But I don't think so. I think that even though we have developed a tolerance, the human body is pushing back on a bigger scale. Even with insulin, the resistance grows.

So my message that diabetes is an illusion, isn't quite the same as "everything is illusion." My recommendation is that we learn to reduce sugar as a culture.


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:01 pm 
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SPG wrote:
I might get a little preachy here.

Ever heard of the phrase, "Judge not, least you be judged."


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Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:02 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
SPG wrote:
When I allow you to believe whatever you want, I allow myself. Consciousness has a way of imposing your beliefs on yourself. You limit what you believe, so you figure you have to limit what I believe.

Perhaps that is the problem? If a person is interested in discovering the truth, the fastest way towards it is through having their views challenged. Perhaps the problem isn't with an attempt to eliminate belief in the unsustainable as much as avoiding the discomfort with criticism that comes from allowing one's views to be challenged and that becoming part of the process one uses for refining one's understanding?

Personally, I don't want people to allow me to believe what I want in the same way I hope someone would tell me if my zipper was down or if I had something stuck in my teeth. It's nice when it isn't presented too harshly, but I'd much rather have critics than sycophants. Critics are useful.

I totally agree. I'm here to have my beliefs challenged. But if you just decided that my beliefs needed challenged when I was just trying to keep the peace, I might be pissed. I can (I hope) handle the critics. I feel some discomfort here, but it's not unbearable.


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 Post subject: Re: From ''CNN Article On Mormon Name Change''
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:09 pm 
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cwald wrote:
SPG wrote:
I might get a little preachy here.

Ever heard of the phrase, "Judge not, least you be judged."


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Buzz, wrong. The phrase you will be judged by how you judge others. Meaning, ideas I impose on you get imposed on me. I judge you, but not in a way that would limit or confine you.


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