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 Post subject: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:45 am 
Dragon
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Abner Cole printed this in the October 28, 1829 edition of the Palmyra Reflector:

Quote:
KNIPPERDOLINGS. -- a denomination in the sixteenth century, so called from Bertrand Knipperdoling, who taught that the righteous before the day of Judgment , should have a monarchy on earth and the wicked be destroyed, that men are not justified by their faith in Christ; that there is no original sin; that infants ought not to be baptized, and that immersion is the only mode of baptism; that every one has the authority to preach and administer the sacraments; that men are not obliged to pay respect to magistrates; that all things ought to be in common, and that it is lawful to marry many wives. ~Wednesday, October 28, 1829.


Fascinating, huh?

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:06 am 
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Indeed. Knipperdoling deserves a seat on the EModE ghost committee on those qualifications alone.

Seriously, though, grindael, thanks. You do an amazing job of setting the full scene for the unfolding of historical events. IMO, Joseph Smith was a pretty amazing mimic, and he certainly had plenty of material to work with.


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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Smith had a smorgasbord of freakdom to pick from. Kind of a like a new guru showing up in California in the early 60s. Really, CA has been that way since the 19th century. It's like there was a NY-CA transmission belt of weirdness and woo.

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:54 pm 
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My question, grindael, is why Abner Cole was publishing such information at that time.

Did Cole just copy this from Hannah Adams’ Alphabetical Compendium of Various Sects?

Did he print other entries from that book in the paper?

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:32 pm 
Dragon
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I don't know why Cole published that then, except that I think he was struck by the similarities in the Book of Mormon and perhaps from word of mouth. It's word for word from the entry. He did publish another on Joanna Southcott, but I'm not sure if he got that from the same source.

The parallels to the Anabaptists are simply striking. Cole may have known that the Book of Mormon decried polygamy, but that's debatable, he surely knew later. What struck me is how early this is, there wasn't even a hint of a church being formed yet, but who knows what kind of inside information Cole had that we may never have heard of?

This was before they went to Ohio and fell in with the "common stock" families there.

It would only be two years later that Ezra Booth would claim that Joseph could act like King David and have a man killed for his wife and it would not hurt his prophetic standing, and some would be claiming that Smith and Rigdon were claiming that adultery was no crime.

George Smith (I was told after finding this - I had forgotten) does a whole chapter on the Anabaptists in his book Mormon Polygamy.

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Lemmie,

I just found a letter published in a newspaper written by Sidney Rigdon from Liberty Jail on Jan. 1, 1839, and it's very interesting, and is his take on the events that happened with David Patten, etc. I've only ever seen the first two paragraphs of it, and there is no date. I'm looking to see if anyone else has ever found the whole letter. So far, I'm coming up empty.

Here's part of it,

Image

This is all I could find on it so far... http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/New York ... htm#020939

From Dale,
Quote:
Note: This open letter was apparently written by Sidney Rigdon between Nov. 30, 1838, when he was first confined at Liberty Jail, and Feb. 5, 1839, when he managed to escape. The wording sounds as if it may have been derived from his Jan. 25th plea for a writ of habeas corpus, as presented before the Clay County Court at the beginning of 1839.

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Last edited by grindael on Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:39 pm 
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Quote:
Cole may have known that the Book of Mormon decried polygamy, but that's debatable, he surely knew later. What struck me is how early this is, there wasn't even a hint of a church being formed yet, but who knows what kind of inside information Cole had that we may never have heard of?


What is the timing on the publication of this info on Anabaptists relative to the Book of Pukei stuff?

ETA: Like 10 months before he Book of Pukei? Hmmm. This COULD be a very significant find, grindael.

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:56 pm 
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What do you make of this bit, grindael?

Quote:
“The ‘New-Jerusalem Reflector’ states that the building of the TEMPLE OF NEPHI is to be commenced about the beginning of the first year of the Millennium. Thousands are already flocking to the standard of Joseph the Prophet. The Book of Mormon is expected to astonish the natives!!”

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:28 pm 
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It's very interesting what you can find when you dig around... now who would have thought there were articles like this being reported in 1838? And what does this say about the Mormon version of what was going on?

Image

Where is all the reporting about Joseph being condemned to be shot? Only in Mormon accounts.

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:30 pm 
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Temple of Nephi? Martin Harris running his mouth...

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:50 pm 
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Here's another interesting one, from August 12, 1842...

Image

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:49 am 
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http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH/painerep.htm#021439

Too bad the ACLU was not around back in Missouri to defend the Mormons. It was like that entire part of Missouri had become the Ferguson Police Department conducting a pogrom on a roving gypsy tribe over a few stolen items, fortune tellings, and perhaps a panty raid or two.

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:10 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Temple of Nephi? Martin Harris running his mouth...


Didn't Joseph Smith also write to Jesse Smith about the same topic?

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:40 pm 
Dragon
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Something else of interest... this was published by Cole a month earlier...

Quote:
An Extract. -- MEN OF UNDERSTANDING -- "This title distinquished a denomination which appeared in Flanders and Brussels, in the year 1511. They owed their origin to an illiterate man whose name was Egidus Cantor, [Aegidius Cantor, 1411] and to William of Hendenison, [Hildernissen] a Carmelite Monk -- They pretended to be honoured with celestial visions; denied that any could arrive at a perfect knowledge of the Holy Scriptures without the extraordinary succors of a divine illumination, and declared the approach of a new revelation from heaven, more perfect than the Gospel of Christ."

How does this tally with the pretensions of Jo Smith Jr. and his followers -- ha? ...


What in the world was Abner Cole getting at?????

https://books.google.com/books?id=dFchg ... or&f=false

Cole doesn't mention their practice of free love that resembles the Spiritual Wifeism of John C. Bennett & William Smith...

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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:17 am 
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The story of Kinpperdoling and the Munster rebellion was the first major crack in my shelf. I first heard about it listening to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast. The similarities between the Anabaptists and Mormonism are striking. It's very interesting to find that even early on people were aware of the similarities.


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 Post subject: Re: KNIPPERDOLINGS
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:39 pm 
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shroudedninja wrote:
The story of Kinpperdoling and the Munster rebellion was the first major crack in my shelf. I first heard about it listening to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast. The similarities between the Anabaptists and Mormonism are striking. It's very interesting to find that even early on people were aware of the similarities.


That episode should be required listening.

Welcome to the board.

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