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 Post subject: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:55 pm 
Sunbeam

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:12 am
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Quote:
"And as I’ve mentioned, we’ve all been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry. The unawareness remains strong but compliance is obviously fading rapidly.” - John Podesta

Whom are the brainwashed idiots? And why did they need to make the masses ignorant in order to accomplish what was right? Why in the “land of the free” does he make it sound like a fait accompli?


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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:34 pm 
God
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SSmokey- why not show the entire email?

And at least get the author correct. This was sent to Podesta, not written by Podesta.

Are you an inveterate liar, or just a plain old moron?

Quote:
From:bi@globalculturalstrategies.com
To: john.podesta@gmail.com
Date: 2016-03-13 17:06
Subject: From Bill Ivey

Dear John:

Well, we all thought the big problem for our US democracy was Citizens United/Koch Brothers big money in politics. Silly us; turns out that money isn't all that important if you can conflate entertainment with the electoral process. Trump masters TV, TV so-called news picks up and repeats and repeats to death this opinionated blowhard and his hairbrained ideas, free-floating discontent attaches to a seeming strongman and we're off and running. JFK, Jr would be delighted by all this as his "George" magazine saw celebrity politics coming. The magazine struggled as it was ahead of its time but now looks prescient. George, of course, played the development pretty lightly, basically for charm and gossip, like People, but what we are dealing with now is dead serious. How does this get handled in the general? Secretary Clinton is not an entertainer, and not a celebrity in the Trump, Kardashian mold; what can she do to offset this? I'm certain the poll-directed insiders are sure things will default to policy as soon as the conventions are over, but I think not. And as I've mentioned, we've all been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry. The unawareness remains strong but compliance is obviously fading rapidly. This problem demands some serious, serious thinking - and not just poll driven, demographically-inspired messaging.

Rubio's press conference yesterday AM was good and should be repeated in its entirety, not just in nibbles. I will attend the Clinton fundraiser here next week but as I can only afford the low level of participation may just get to wave without a "hello."

I fear we are all now trying to navigate a set of forces that cannot be simply explained or fully understood, so it is and will reamin interesting!

Sent with a handshake,

Bill

_________________
People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people, Jeremy.- Super Hans

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.- H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:56 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:17 am
Posts: 5491
Location: California
iwanttotalk wrote:
Quote:
"And as I’ve mentioned, we’ve all been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry. The unawareness remains strong but compliance is obviously fading rapidly.” - John Podesta


Whom Who are the brainwashed idiots? And why did they need to make the masses ignorant in order to accomplish what was right? Why in the “land of the free” does he make it sound like a fait accompli?

Fixed it for you. "Who" is the proper subjective case and "whom" is the objective case to be used only as the object of verbs and prepositions. Why do so many otherwise seemingly educated and literate people forget grammar rules they should have learned thoroughly by second or third grade? In modern colloquial usage it seems to be becoming more and more acceptable to drop using "whom" entirely and use "who" for both the subjective and objective cases, but, as I understand it, it is still never correct to use "whom" in the subjective case.

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No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


Last edited by Gunnar on Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:10 pm 
God
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Gunnar wrote:
Fixed it for you. "Who" is the proper subjective case and "whom" is the objective case to be used only as the object of verbs and prepositions.

My guess is that starting a sentence with whom is as objective as he gets.

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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:03 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:17 am
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Perfume on my Mind wrote:
My guess is that starting a sentence with whom is as objective as he gets.

Clever! I never thought of that.

I suspect, though, that he will continue to misuse both "who" and "whom", just like some people persist in confusing "then" with "than" and "who's" with "whose" and confusing "their", "there" and "they're" with each other, no matter how often anyone tries to correct them. Apparently, for some people, improper grammar usage, once it gets started, becomes a deeply ingrained habit that is hard for them to break (or brake). :wink: I also suspect that tendency is stronger with the types who cling to hard core, irrational beliefs, despite any amount of contrary evidence. They can be as resistant to correction of their faulty grammar usage as they are to correction of their cherished delusions.

ETA: It is also possible that he thought that "whom" is the plural form of "who", and didn't realize or forgot that "who" and "whom" can both be either singular or plural.

_________________
No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:46 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:17 am
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Location: California
MissTish wrote:
SSmokey- why not show the entire email?

And at least get the author correct. This was sent to Podesta, not written by Podesta.

Are you an inveterate liar, or just a plain old moron?

My guess is that he started reading it with a predisposition to see it in the worst possible light, and was so resistant to letting go of that predisposition that the he failed to notice it was not what he thought or wanted to think it was.

_________________
No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:53 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 17285
MissTish wrote:
SSmokey- why not show the entire email?

And at least get the author correct. This was sent to Podesta, not written by Podesta.

Are you an inveterate liar, or just a plain old moron?

Quote:
From:bi@globalculturalstrategies.com
To: john.podesta@gmail.com
Date: 2016-03-13 17:06
Subject: From Bill Ivey

Dear John:

Well, we all thought the big problem for our US democracy was Citizens United/Koch Brothers big money in politics. Silly us; turns out that money isn't all that important if you can conflate entertainment with the electoral process. Trump masters TV, TV so-called news picks up and repeats and repeats to death this opinionated blowhard and his hairbrained ideas, free-floating discontent attaches to a seeming strongman and we're off and running. JFK, Jr would be delighted by all this as his "George" magazine saw celebrity politics coming. The magazine struggled as it was ahead of its time but now looks prescient. George, of course, played the development pretty lightly, basically for charm and gossip, like People, but what we are dealing with now is dead serious. How does this get handled in the general? Secretary Clinton is not an entertainer, and not a celebrity in the Trump, Kardashian mold; what can she do to offset this? I'm certain the poll-directed insiders are sure things will default to policy as soon as the conventions are over, but I think not. And as I've mentioned, we've all been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry. The unawareness remains strong but compliance is obviously fading rapidly. This problem demands some serious, serious thinking - and not just poll driven, demographically-inspired messaging.

Rubio's press conference yesterday AM was good and should be repeated in its entirety, not just in nibbles. I will attend the Clinton fundraiser here next week but as I can only afford the low level of participation may just get to wave without a "hello."

I fear we are all now trying to navigate a set of forces that cannot be simply explained or fully understood, so it is and will reamin interesting!

Sent with a handshake,

Bill

That email gets a lot right before it became conventional wisdom to note Trump's ability to exploit his entertainment value for gobs of press coverage that functions as free advertising.

In context, the quote Smokey isolated means approximately the opposite of the meaning he imputed to it. I'm not sure if he expected his lying to be exposed immediately, but there you have it.


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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:56 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 17285
I'm not sure if the decline in civics classes can explain the explosion of infotainment journalism and its corrosive effect on American politics. After all, the principle consumers of cable news are old people who had those civics classes before they went away. It's not young people who are the problem here.


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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:00 pm 
God
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EAllusion wrote:
I'm not sure if the decline in civics classes can explain the explosion of infotainment journalism and its corrosive effect on American politics. After all, the principle consumers of cable news are old people who had those civics classes before they went away. It's not young people who are the problem here.


I really, really, really wish civics would be taught starting in grade school all the way through a 4-year degree. I recently made post about it, and then I realized I never pinged our board of education and elected reps so I sent off emails. I know it's futile, but I didn't feel right kvetching here without at least sending a note to the people who can actually do something about it.

- Doc

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In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:20 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
I'm not sure if the decline in civics classes can explain the explosion of infotainment journalism and its corrosive effect on American politics. After all, the principle consumers of cable news are old people who had those civics classes before they went away. It's not young people who are the problem here.


I really, really, really wish civics would be taught starting in grade school all the way through a 4-year degree. I recently made post about it, and then I realized I never pinged our board of education and elected reps so I sent off emails. I know it's futile, but I didn't feel right kvetching here without at least sending a note to the people who can actually do something about it.

- Doc


I'd like to have more civics requirements in public education as well. I'm just skeptical that the more recent move away from civics can explain celebrity politics on cable news. The people who are most into that are the generation who was in school before the decline in civics requirements happened.


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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:01 am 
God
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If you look into the public school curriculum you'll see that civics education still there. If civics are not emphasized by parents and the student is far more interested in everything else, the lessons and values will not penetrate and remain. Consumption of sensational and manipulative partisan media makes learning the broader basis of American government almost impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:13 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
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Maksutov wrote:
If you look into the public school curriculum you'll see that civics education still there. If civics are not emphasized by parents and the student is far more interested in everything else, the lessons and values will not penetrate and remain. Consumption of sensational and manipulative partisan media makes learning the broader basis of American government almost impossible.
It varies state to state. Nationally, there was a deemphasis on civics because there are a lot of worthwhile subjects to teach.

Locally, I can say there has been a move away from structure of government material in favor of focus on community relationships.


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 Post subject: Re: This sounds really bad.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:29 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:17 am
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Location: California
I remember being taught civics when I was in 8th grade, but that was a long, long time ago. It was not my favorite subject at the time, but I recognized the importance of knowing how our government works or is supposed to work, and I still retain most of what I learned then, largely because I made it a point throughout my subsequent life and education to refresh that knowledge and add to it on my own. I also remember having that knowledge refreshed and reinforced in my high school and college history classes. I am dismayed by the apparent de-emphasis of teaching and retaining that knowledge during the subsequent decades of my life and about how appallingly ignorant most people I encounter seem to be about the basics of our governmental system. I have little doubt that this played a large factor in making it possible for someone as narcissistic, ignorant, self-serving and dangerous as Trump to be elected to the highest office of the richest and most powerful country on earth. History will prove (and, indeed, is already beginning to prove) that the world has become a scarier and more dangerous place because of that.

One of things I find most upsetting about this is the apparent reversal of what had been (it seemed to me) a steadily growing trend towards greater civility and mutual tolerance and acceptance between various religious, cultural and racial groups.

_________________
No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


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