The New War with Iran

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Some Schmo
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Re: The New War with Iran

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iwanttotalk wrote:can't wait for you to experience the totalitarian socialism you so desire.

Ahhh, the classic right-wing "I'm a ____ ignoramus" tell... accusing people who call Trump a moron of being socialist.

Try describing what socialism is, then you have a shot at people taking you seriously (well, probably not any more - you've already said too much to be taken seriously. But then again, it doesn't seem like you care if anyone takes you seriously, so what do you have to lose?)
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The New War with Iran

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Anyway. Here we are. We’ve seen what Trump’s base is, and what kind of man they vote into office:

Image

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

I have a question
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Re: The New War with Iran

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Anyway. Here we are. We’ve seen what Trump’s base is, and what kind of man they vote into office:

Image

- Doc

This is a sincere question, how can a country with adult voters voting in a democratic election process, vote in Donald Trump to be President? You’d be better off with a potato as President.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')

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Re: The New War with Iran

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I have a question wrote:This is a sincere question, how can a country with adult voters voting in a democratic election process, vote in Donald Trump to be President? You’d be better off with a potato as President.

Stupid people wanted their champion.
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Re: The New War with Iran

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Maybe there is a motive for the murder of this Iranian general?

https://www.blacklistednews.com/article/75930/military-contractors-raytheon-lockheed-martin-see-stock-prices-soar-amid-iran.html

One wonders how many congressmen and senators profited off of this? How much of the church portfolio is nestled safely with our military contractors? Betting on more war has been good for a long time.
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Re: The New War with Iran

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I have a question wrote:This is a sincere question, how can a country with adult voters voting in a democratic election process, vote in Donald Trump to be President? You’d be better off with a potato as President.


Well, it is only those who are right of center who love trump and think he's the bees knees. Supposedly there is a huge number of never-Trump republicans who are trying to save the party from him. In reality, based on the 2016 election results, and Trump's approval rating among Republicans, they are a very, very small minority within the party. It is no longer the party of Lincoln or the party of Reagan. It will forever be the party of Trump.
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Re: The New War with Iran

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The Trump admin insisted the Suleimani strike was a response to intel about an imminent attack. Today, all Pompeo could offer when asked about that intel was the following:

"We know what happened at the end of last year & ultimately led to the death of an American. If you are looking for immanence, look no further than the days that led up to the strike."

Which means there was no such intel and there was no such imminent attack. The Trump admin was lying. They lie about everything. They are fundamentally corrupt.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-ne ... YrVUOE6354

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Re: The New War with Iran

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Icarus wrote:The Trump admin insisted the Suleimani strike was a response to intel about an imminent attack. Today, all Pompeo could offer when asked about that intel was the following:

"We know what happened at the end of last year & ultimately led to the death of an American. If you are looking for immanence, look no further than the days that led up to the strike."

Which means there was no such intel and there was no such imminent attack. The Trump admin was lying. They lie about everything. They are fundamentally corrupt.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-ne ... YrVUOE6354


I wonder how many Trump supporters on this board believe there was an imminent attack coming and Trump saved us from it? If so, do they also still believe there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? I'm also curious why they now trust the deep state operatives who are allegedly saying there was an imminent attack. Why do they trust the deep state all of a sudden? Why are they suddenly in favor of more middle east wars brought on by deep state operatives?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
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Dr Exiled
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Re: The New War with Iran

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DarkHelmet wrote:
Icarus wrote:The Trump admin insisted the Suleimani strike was a response to intel about an imminent attack. Today, all Pompeo could offer when asked about that intel was the following:

"We know what happened at the end of last year & ultimately led to the death of an American. If you are looking for immanence, look no further than the days that led up to the strike."

Which means there was no such intel and there was no such imminent attack. The Trump admin was lying. They lie about everything. They are fundamentally corrupt.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-ne ... YrVUOE6354


I wonder how many Trump supporters on this board believe there was an imminent attack coming and Trump saved us from it? If so, do they also still believe there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? I'm also curious why they now trust the deep state operatives who are allegedly saying there was an imminent attack. Why do they trust the deep state all of a sudden? Why are they suddenly in favor of more middle east wars brought on by deep state operatives?


Siding with the team for team sake is clearly a problem in politics at times.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Some Schmo
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Re: The New War with Iran

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DarkHelmet wrote:I'm also curious why they now trust the deep state operatives who are allegedly saying there was an imminent attack.

The Sec. of Defense just described it as "exquisite intelligence." I'm with you; I could have sworn that none of those agencies could be trusted. Maybe he's talking about intelligence from the Kremlin. At least that would be consistent.
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Re: The New War with Iran

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Trump says Suleimani strike was 'retaliation'

Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office alongside the Greek prime minister, Trump claimed the US strike that killed Iranian general Qassem Suleimani was “retaliation.”

“He was a monster. And he’s no longer a monster. He’s dead,” Trump said, according to the White House pool report.

But senior US officials have previously said the strike was meant to prevent an “imminent” attack on Americans, although they have refused to provide further details on the threat.


I mean, one of the things that should convince everybody that the administration's explanations of the killing are true is that they are so consistent and clear ...

Oh, wait ...
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Re: The New War with Iran

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Res Ipsa wrote:
EAllusion wrote:You feel less terror about our incompetence in matters of life and death if you read this with yackety sax playing in your head:

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1 ... 7114200064


I hurt my back attempting the rarely performed quintuple face palm.

Okay, something from Benny Hill or The Coasters.

To be fair, I can see how the function of staff might be to draw up preliminary documents to cover the entire range of options. What I don't understand how that document gets delivered to the Iraqis.

I keep trying to tell myself that there is nothing I can do about what is going on, but it seems like the wheels are coming off. One of the truly frightening things to contemplate about a second Trump term: Who's left? We've already gone through the first four teams at least. How deep is the talent roster in crazytown?
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Re: The New War with Iran

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What was Solemani doing in Bagdad anyway? Didn't Obama's Iran Deal forbid him from going there? We see how well they adhered to that worthless agreement. How many American soldiers/civilians did this guy help kill? Hasn't Iran been threatening the US since 1979?

Now Michael Moore is apologizing to Iran calling the Trump administration a terrorist regime.

We can't agree enough on anything to be one functional nation. We need separate countries and a full divorce between left and right.
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Re: The New War with Iran

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Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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Re: The New War with Iran

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ajax18 wrote:We need separate countries and a full divorce between left and right.


In case anyone thinks our White supremacist cum separatist isn't a piece of garbage traitorous ____, well, there it is.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

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Re: The New War with Iran

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

[–]Pearberr

[score hidden] 16 hours ago*227

Iran has similar internal politics to our own. They have liberals who want free trade and peace with the world and think religious laws are Stoopid. They have a right wing that says religious laws are needed, and then create fear and anger against Americans to help gloss over the fact that their economy sucks.

In 2015, the liberal factions on both sides won with the signing of the JCPOA, "The Iran Deal." This deal was a watershed moment for Iran's relationship with the world. They gave up all of their medium level material and 98% of their low level uranium. They also ceded critical infrastructure, and agreed to international inspectors. They were probably a few months of focused work away from a bomb (they weren't actively trying to complete because Israel vowed to attack if they came close). After the JCPOA it was at least a year away and probably closer to two.

This solved the existential crisis that has made Europe and Israel so aggressively anti-Iranian. They could no longer say, reasonably threaten to glass Paris.

Echoing Republican sentiment across the Atlantic, the Iranian Royal Guard and right wing hardline politicians said you can't trust the Americans they hate you, they are an unreliable partner. Do not do the deal, we did not get enough. We can negotiate a better deal. But sucks for all of them, they aren't in power, oh no we have peace, reconciliation and open diplomatic channels to begin making progress on other regional disputes such as the blockade of Gaza or ISIL - which we all have been working together to defeat.

About a year ago Trump withdrew the United States from the JCPOA claiming at various points that Iran wasn't in compliance (journalists, our European allies and Trump's State Department disagree) or that Obama got a bad deal and we could do better. We ratcheted up sanctions on Iran, cut them out of the global banking system and ____ their economy.

And here we get to the moral of the story. This played right into the hands of the hardliners[/b], like Soleimani. I'm sure some very joyous "I told you so's" were yelped out by Conservatives in Iran. They warned those stupid, bleeding heart liberals that America would betray them.

In response, Iran has flexed in a few mostly minor ways to remind the world it can ____ up everybody else's economy too. They temporarily detained a pair of oil tankers. Then in response to Saudi escalation in Yemen they allegedly bombed some oil fields. Lately, they have increased rocket attacks on American military positions in Iraq - their neighbors - where they've always opposed our opposition. This acting out is typical and expected of States under sanctions - our revolution was largely about British trade monopolies after all.

And here is where we reach the killing. They shot rockets at us, we fired missiles back but Trump was watching the news and the protestors at our embassy were still chanting death to America (similar to how Republicans casually talk about glassing the Middle east, I despise this language, but we do it to it's not new nor escalatory, nor a representation of their official foreign policy). So Trump asked the Pentagon for more options.

[b]And he decided to kill their Jim Mattis
. Imagine if the mad dog was assassinated. I'd be mad. You'd be mad.

There's a famous quote from a French diplomat Tallyrand that I can't get out of my head. Napolean arrested and executed Louis Antoine de Bourbon on flimsy pretenses, a man who stood in his way, a tyrannical act and a crime. Tallyrand noted in the moment. "This is worse than a crime... This is a mistake." It was tyrannical, but worse, it betrayed his intent to the world, and the blunder showed weakness - and others immediately began plotting against him.

Look. No intelligent Westerner likes or is mourning Soleimani. But assassination of high ranking officials has always been a declaration of war. Trump has shredded American credibility. Iran's internal politics will swing hard right, and if they declare war Israel and Saudi Arabia will be our only allies. And we cannot win a war with Iran. It will be a quagmire at best and an outright embarrassing defeat at worst. Sure we'll kill all the poor people and liberal city dwellers who like us but the IRGC has prepared for this for 40 years. They'll be the best organized terrorist insurgency ever. They'll farm one day and blow us the ____ up tomorrow. We will have to choose between eternal occupation or tucking our tail and running. We will spend another $2T on things that aren't infrastructure, healthcare, education, deficit reduction or tax cuts.

The killing of Soleimani is worse than a crime. It's a mistake.


The very people that need to internalize this post will never read it, nor are they capable of understanding Trump's mistake. It's a goddamn shame.

- Doc
Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

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Re: The New War with Iran

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There goes our tax dollars.

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Re: The New War with Iran

Post by DoubtingThomas »

ajax18 wrote:What was Solemani doing in Bagdad anyway?


Why are American soldiers still in Iraq?

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Re: The New War with Iran

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Dear lord.

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Re: The New War with Iran

Post by EAllusion »

What's frightening about this situation is Donald Trump is president. It's really hard to get your head around the unreality that people are turning to Donald Trump - an amoral megalomaniac moron - for direction, but if you do, it should feel deeply unsettling. The upshot here is it is still quite possible to deescalate the situation. The downside is we're relying on Donald Trump to be persuaded to do that. He's got an isolationist streak, but he also has a crippling need to appear tough and strong, so we'll just get to enjoy that coin flip of death and hope it works out.

Imagine going back in time to 1989, encountering a foreign policy crisis, and being told that we'll ask just Donald J. Trump what he wants to do and decide to go with what he says. Seems insane, no? That's what's actually happening now.

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Re: The New War with Iran

Post by EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
ajax18 wrote:We need separate countries and a full divorce between left and right.


In case anyone thinks our White supremacist cum separatist isn't a piece of garbage traitorous ____, well, there it is.

- Doc


Ajax is a loyal person. It's who he is. But he also desperately wants those who oppose his white supremacist ideas impotent or dead. He thinks its wrong to kill fellow Americans, though. Quite the conundrum. If, on the other hand, you weren't a fellow American and tensions escalate, well, you laying in a pool of your own blood is just foreign policy.

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