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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:31 pm 
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I saved this thread for my back pocket to talk about how our democracy is falling apart sometime around the impeachment trial and the subsequent developments afterwards. I think it is quite likely American democracy is disintegrating, though this is a stepwise process that is hard to know exactly where you are when you are the middle of it. It's so much easier to see when it's happening in some other nation. We've got some upcoming events that should make things more clear.

I just peeked in now. I didn't expect the thread to go where it has gone.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:18 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
I saved this thread for my back pocket to talk about how our democracy is falling apart sometime around the impeachment trial and the subsequent developments afterwards. I think it is quite likely American democracy is disintegrating, though this is a stepwise process that is hard to know exactly where you are when you are the middle of it. It's so much easier to see when it's happening in some other nation. We've got some upcoming events that should make things more clear.

I just peeked in now. I didn't expect the thread to go where it has gone.


Yeah, my bad. for what it's worth, If you split out Smokey's post, responses to his post, and anything else about religion, I think you'd be left with an on topic thread.

Or you could retitle this one: People Who Can't Stay On Topic. And start over....

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:23 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
for what it's worth, If you split out Smokey's post, responses to his post, and anything else about religion, I think you'd be left with an on topic thread.

I don't think you can disentangle this disintegration of democracy from religion, frankly. Outrageous beliefs are at its core.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:07 am 
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Perfume on my Mind wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
for what it's worth, If you split out Smokey's post, responses to his post, and anything else about religion, I think you'd be left with an on topic thread.

I don't think you can disentangle this disintegration of democracy from religion, frankly. Outrageous beliefs are at its core.


Democracies have fallen with religious backing and without. More broadly, autocratic governments have developed both religious backing and elements and in direct opposition to them. On the opposite end, democracies have functioned just fine with large numbers of religious citizens. Religion is neither a necessity nor sufficient condition to explain the illiberal tide.

It's true that in specific examples, religion is an important part of the story. You can explain what happened in Turkey without drawing in religion so long as we are clear that by "religion" we are referring to a specific Islamist culture inside of Turkey. It's reasonable to argue that America's conservative Christians, evangelicals specifically, are one of the forces driving what is happening to our Republic. But that's not at the feet of "religion" in some general sense.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:05 pm 
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Bible creation is not violent so would not be describing the big bang. (?)
Violence involves force making damage disruption of order and injury. The big bang involves none of these ,it is a time of an expanding state of very high energy. That is entirely orderly process and involves no violence at all.

The big bang can fit Genesis to my mind but that is no proof of Genesis. I am unaware of any information beyond what ifs about whether there were other cycles or events prior to the bang beginning what we can detect.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:18 pm 
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I hadn't been following this thread but, having checked it this morning and skimming past the Smokey bits, it seemed to me this article I had shared elsewhere might better fit here. It coins the term "Ukrainianization" to describe the effects we are seeing here.

This article from The New York Times, available through MSN, is worth reading. It paints a picture of how Trump's behavior mirrors that of the corrupting influences that led Ukraine to where it is, and to the condition where the idea the Ukraine has a corruption problem is accepted as a given by everyone on both sides of the political aisle in the US.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... spartandhp

Donald Trump ought to be impeached and removed from office. This isn’t what I thought two months ago, when the impeachment inquiry began. I argued that the evidence fell short of the standards of a prosecutable criminal act. I also feared impeachment might ultimately help Trump politically, as it had helped Bill Clinton in 1998. That second worry might still prove true.

But if the congressional testimonies of Marie Yovanovitch, Bill Taylor, Gordon Sondland, Alexander Vindman and especially Fiona Hill make anything clear, it’s that the president’s highest crime isn’t what he tried to do to, or with, Ukraine.

It’s that he’s attempting to turn the United States into Ukraine. The judgment Congress has to make is whether the American people should be willing, actively or passively, to go along with it.

I’ve followed Ukrainian politics fairly closely since 1999, when I joined the staff of The Wall Street Journal Europe. It has consistent themes that should sound familiar to American ears.

The first theme is the criminalization of political differences. Years before Trump led his followers in “Lock Her Up” chants against Hillary Clinton, then-Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych did exactly that against his own political rival, Yulia Tymoshenko, who was sentenced to seven years in prison on a variety of byzantine charges after she had narrowly lost the 2010 election.

She spent three years in prison before her release during the 2014 Maidan Revolution. Key to Yanukovych’s efforts to discredit Tymoshenko was — who else? — Paul Manafort.

A second theme is the use of political office as a shield against criminal prosecution and as a vehicle for personal and familial enrichment. Why have so many of Ukraine’s oligarchs — including Burisma Holdings founder Mykola Zlochevsky — also served as government ministers? Simple: Because, until recently, it shielded them from criminal prosecution thanks to parliamentary immunity, while also providing them with the means to use government power for their own benefit.

The third theme is what one might call the netherworldization of political life, in which conspiracy theories abound, off-stage figures wield outsized influence, and channels of formal authority are disconnected from the real centers of power.

This reality came vividly to light in 2016, when a parliamentary effort to vote “no confidence” in the government of then-Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk unexpectedly collapsed, thanks to the usual string-pulling from the country’s wealthiest power brokers. As Ukrainian political commentator Maxim Eristavi noted at the time, in Ukraine “There are no party lines, no real policy debates, no ideological clashes: just cold-hearted vested interests and short-term alliances between various oligarchic groups.”

The fourth theme is covert Russian interference, usually facilitated by local actors.

Ukraine offers the world’s most extreme example of this kind of interference (nearby Georgia is a close second), since large parts of the country have been seized outright by Russia and its proxies. But long before the Kremlin’s “little green men” arrived in Crimea in 2014, Russia and its agents were using every dirty trick at their disposal, from poisoning a future Ukrainian president with dioxin to poisoning the media landscape with disinformation. Too often, it worked, whether because its victims were suggestible, corrupt, fearful or simply not paying attention.

That last point was also made by Fiona Hill in her testimony on Thursday, where she warned members of the House Intelligence Committee that they ran the risk of themselves falling victims to “politically driven falsehoods,” regarding a bogus theory about Ukrainian political interference, “that so clearly advance Russian interests.”

Yet the person who is both the principal consumer and purveyor of those falsehoods is the president of the United States, just as he has been a purveyor of so many other conspiracy theories. Even now, this should astound us.

It doesn’t, because we’ve been living in a country undergoing its own dismal process of Ukrainianization: of treating fictions as facts; and propaganda as journalism; and political opponents as criminals; and political offices as business ventures; and personal relatives as diplomatic representatives; and legal fixers as shadow cabinet members; and extortion as foreign policy; and toadyism as patriotism; and fellow citizens as “human scum”; and mortal enemies as long-lost friends — and then acting as if all this is perfectly normal. This is more than a high crime. It’s a clear and present danger to our security, institutions, and moral hygiene.

It’s to the immense credit of ordinary Ukrainians that, in fighting Russian aggression in the field and fighting for better governance in Kyiv, they have shown themselves worthy of the world’s support. And it’s to the enduring shame of the Republican Party that they have been willing to debase our political standards to the old Ukrainian level just when Ukrainians are trying to rise to our former level.

The one way to stop this is to make every effort to remove Trump from office. It shouldn’t have to wait a year.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:55 pm 
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I think the closest model for democratic collapse happening in the US is Hungary. It's a shame our one Hungarian poster was run off the board. It'd be nice to have him right about now.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:03 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
I think the closest model for democratic collapse happening in the US is Hungary. It's a shame our one Hungarian poster was run off the board. It'd be nice to have him right about now.


I’m still absolutely flummoxed by Dr. Shades’ autistic hate for him. We have American fascists posting memes left and right, we have an openly racist neo-Nazi, we have one guy openly supporting Communism, I’m admittedly a middling hateful r____, and we have a Mormon who routinely subverts and slides threads that rub him the wrong way. But ____ that Hungarian guy, amiright?

Edit: Also, it’s pretty ____ hypocritical for Shades to hate on a Hungarian who just wants to share bits of his culture when Shades has some odd duck obsession with his waifus, to the point of stickying a thread or dropping rando references to them in various threads.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:25 pm 
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I agree Shades was biased in unfortunate ways when it comes to his treatment of ludwigm and his sock puppets. But that also includes the acknowledgment lud was not without fault.

If you track it back, I think it comes down to a couple of points with the first being the most critical.

Point 1
1a - Lud posted cartoons showing cartoon genitals and sex acts with cartoon nudity in forums where NSFW content isn't allowed,
1b - When moved to another forum and told to stop, lud got belligerent with Shades and argued he was uncultured or something of the sort.
1c - I don't know if that's a cultural thing or where it came from, but I think most of us in the same position would know we were in the wrong, would do a mea culpa on it to move on instead of turn it into a war. That's not how lud chose to respond and even when he would get let off queue status he seemed intent on winning the argument by pushing Shades in the hopes others will defend him and force Shades's hand rather than just moving on from it.

That's dumb.

Some here may also remember there were other posters around the same time challenging Shades on similar but not exactly the same issue. Shades was against nudity in art in ways reminiscent of BYU or the LDS church but it is what it is. It got zeezrom put on queue. MrStak had his stone penis avatar as part of the protest. If anything, Shades seems to have been consistently unwilling to give to anyone on the issue or care what they thought. So.

This is essentially what is behind the hostility between the two. It went both ways, too. The board lost out for it, and as the board proprietor I tend to think it is up to Shades to recognize when he is the key to resolving such hostilities. But I wouldn't pretend that ludwigm did nothing or that Shades was completely irrational.

Grumpy old men, in three words.

Point 2
2a - Shades has a tendency to miss nuance in posts, including sending posts to the off topic forum that most people could read between the lines and see how they were not only on topic, but probably more so for their oblique take on the topic at hand.
2b - Ludwigm tends to be oblique in his take on most subjects rather than direct which I think many posters found witty, but clearly they were a miss with Shade most of the time.
2c - Given Shades usually doesn't move Moksha's oblique posting, it seems the requirement to have some cultural interpretation or knowledge to make the connection is missing for him to assume even if he didn't get the nuance it was still likely there.

But again, ludwigm challenged him in ways that went pretty far towards undermining his authority on the board and I don't expect Shades takes that casually. That he began to be singled out after that shouldn't be surprising. Life kinda works like that. Add to that ludwigm was on the opposing side to the United States during the Cold War which involved living in a polar opposite worldview when it comes to the US projecting power in the world, and has said plenty of things that would rub someone wrong who was on the US side of that propaganda effort that becomes just one more thing to add fuel to this fire. Personally I think it is good for the board to have a voice from outside our cultural norms including someone who was not spoon fed on American greatness, etc., etc. But I don't expect everyone to respond well to it when it shows up as rawly as it has at times. Lud never missed a chance to take a shot at the US being the only nation to use a nuclear weapon in war, for example, and leveraged this in discussions. If that bothers someone, it's probably going to really bother them. Again, life is like that.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:07 pm 
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It looks like the Navy Secretary is being forced out over his mild rebuke of Trump pardoning war criminals. I've seen some crowing about the military standing up to Trump, but that's not how this works. It just means that the military is being gradually purged of people insufficiently pliant to what Trump represents.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:29 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
It looks like the Navy Secretary is being forced out over his mild rebuke of Trump pardoning war criminals. I've seen some crowing about the military standing up to Trump, but that's not how this works. It just means that the military is being gradually purged of people insufficiently pliant to what Trump represents.


I think it’s worse than that. The article I read said he offered to let the soldier keep a pin if the executive wouldn’t interfere. That’s apparently a firing offense. Compare and contrast at your own risk.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
It looks like the Navy Secretary is being forced out over his mild rebuke of Trump pardoning war criminals. I've seen some crowing about the military standing up to Trump, but that's not how this works. It just means that the military is being gradually purged of people insufficiently pliant to what Trump represents.

I think it’s worse than that. The article I read said he offered to let the soldier keep a pin if the executive wouldn’t interfere. That’s apparently a firing offense. Compare and contrast at your own risk.

Yeah, reporting is still moving on this one. That seems to be the story. The resignation letter out and it is more of a passive aggressive acknowledgement of being forced out than you typically see. It not so subtly accuses the President of threatening the rule of law.

It's just another opportunity to promote someone who will put party and Trump before America as the Trump admin gets better and better at transforming the federal government to this end.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:47 pm 
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But why is his offer to do a soldier a solid if the president doesn’t interfere with the military justice system a firing offense, while offering to do a foreign leader a solid if he’ll interfere an election campaign aok?

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:16 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
But why is his offer to do a soldier a solid if the president doesn’t interfere with the military justice system a firing offense, while offering to do a foreign leader a solid if he’ll interfere an election campaign aok?

It's not. It's the mildest of mild rebukes and look where it got him.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:18 pm 
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Here's an epic tweet storm by the former director of the Office of Government Ethics, who resigned in 2017. https://twitter.com/waltshaub/status/11 ... 1730256897 I think it fits in this thread very nicely, listing the many ways in which he thinks our Republic is disintegrating.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:56 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
It's a shame our one Hungarian poster was run off the board. It'd be nice to have him right about now.

??? "Run off the board?" He left of his own accord. Prior to that, I practically performed the Twelve Labors of Hercules to convince him to stay.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I’m still absolutely flummoxed by Dr. Shades’ autistic hate for him.

??? Requiring off-topic material to be posted in the Off-Topic Forum (of all places) magically equals "autistic hate?"

Please explain.

Quote:
We have American fascists posting memes left and right, we have an openly racist neo-Nazi, we have one guy openly supporting Communism, I’m admittedly a middling hateful r____, and we have a Mormon who routinely subverts and slides threads that rub him the wrong way. But ____ that Hungarian guy, amiright?

The latter Mormon guy is problematic, of course, but have you noticed that all those other offenders remain on topic?

Quote:
Edit: Also, it’s pretty ____ hypocritical for Shades to hate on a Hungarian who just wants to share bits of his culture . . .

He was politely asked, ten times the power of ten thousand, to "share bits of his culture" in the Off-Topic Forum only. He could've done that to his very heart's content. But I guess that was just too much to ask for some unfathomable reason.

Quote:
when Shades has some odd duck obsession with his waifus, to the point of stickying a thread . . .

??? The thread ISN'T stickied.

(And did you notice that the thread is in the Off-Topic Forum?)

honorentheos wrote:
Shades was against nudity in art in ways reminiscent of BYU or the LDS church but it is what it is. It got zeezrom put on queue. MrStak had his stone penis avatar as part of the protest. If anything, Shades seems to have been consistently unwilling to give to anyone on the issue or care what they thought. So.

All that was simply because I know how message board users operate: "When given an inch, take a yard." When I said that true art (as opposed to ludwigm's cartoon rape scenes) of the kind that would hang in the Louvre could be posted, the very first thing someone did was post a painting of a woman's spread-eagled vulva. So, since I want this site to be 100% safe for work, I had to reluctantly do what needed to be done.

Quote:
The board lost out for it, and as the board proprietor I tend to think it is up to Shades to recognize when he is the key to resolving such hostilities.

Oh, how I tried, how I tried, how I tried to resolve the hostilities. But giving one guy a free pass to ignore the rules that everyone else must follow is not the way to do so. . . but unfortunately, he would accept nothing less.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:09 pm 
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Shades,

You repeatedly gated, moved, and placed inordinate focus on his posts in a way that no doubt felt harassing to him.

You did this because you were personally annoyed by what seemed to you be a pattern of off-topic, derailing posts about Hungary. What you never quite got is that a lot of those "off-topic" posts had topic-relevant points that others appreciated. That others kept telling you this never really moved your opinion enough to matter. It is because you are literal-minded to a fault.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:21 pm 
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Quote:
....But giving one guy a free pass to ignore the rules that everyone else must follow is not the way to do so....

:rolleyes: Cough-jubilee-cough.......


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:23 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
You repeatedly gated, moved, and placed inordinate focus on his posts in a way that no doubt felt harassing to him.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say.

Quote:
You did this because you were personally annoyed by what seemed to you be a pattern of off-topic, derailing posts about Hungary. What you never quite got is that a lot of those "off-topic" posts had topic-relevant points that others appreciated. That others kept telling you this never really moved your opinion enough to matter. It is because you are literal-minded to a fault.

The topic-relevant points were too minor to salvage the rest of the posts from the off-topic genus.

Quote:
Cough-jubilee-cough.......

Jubilee from the past, not jubilee from the future.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:27 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
It looks like the Navy Secretary is being forced out over his mild rebuke of Trump pardoning war criminals.

Trump does like his war criminals. He probably has a sense of camaraderie with the criminal part.

Ludwigm has been known to browse this board occasionally. Shout out to Ludwigm my colleague in obliqueness. May the tokay, women, and polka be with you!

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:35 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
You left out this:
Doubting Thomas wrote:
For many Mormon scientists the Big Bang was just an event and god had nothing to do with it.

That was your answer to my specific question about how Mormon scientists view the relationship between God and the Big Bang.


Many Mormon scientists, I didn't say "all".

Res Ipsa wrote:
Now you're claiming that these mystery scientists won't say what they believe in public. That directly contradicts what you said at the beginning of the post: "Because there is no well-defined Mormon cosmology he can believe what ever he wants about the origin of the universe." If he can believe whatever he wants, why does he have to hide what he believes?


To avoid judgment from ignorant LDS members, including local leaders. Many LDS scientists also believe in human evolution, but will never say that in a LDS publication.

Res Ipsa wrote:
but you haven't provided evidence of one LDS scientist or apologist who says "I don't believe God created the universe" or "God had nothing to do with the Big Bang." .


I will come back with the evidence!


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