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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:15 am 
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George Washington agreed, saying in his farewell presidential speech (emphasis Trump):

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The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.


The original hair fire. :rolleyes:

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:45 am 
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CNN ran a piece recently arguing that the founding fathers intended impeachment to be bipartisan. It may have caused history teachers throughout the country to spontaneously combust. Alexander Hamilton is the principal ghostwriter of that farewell address. He totes seems obsssesed with bipartisanship there, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:12 pm 
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I have said this before, but I think the original fault of the constitution outside of slavery comprises is failure to appreciate how political parties work. People like Madison and Hamilton were prescient about risks, but they totally misunderstood the development of party politics. Because of this, important aspects of our government framework don’t work like intended. The framers just gave feeble warnings to stay away from factionalism rather than building institutions best equipped to deal with their inevitability. These warnings are rich coming from Hamilton as he ended up a major player in partisan gamesmanship.

Every Presidential democracy either is relatively young or has collapsed. The US is the lone exception. What Washington’s address is warning about there is a major reason why.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:58 pm 
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Man, it just hit me. We need lessons in civics starting in Kindergarten all the way through grade 12. Half the people that post on this forum lack any sort of basic understanding about our government, how it operates, why it operates like it does, and why it's important to protect it from tyranny.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:57 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Man, it just hit me. We need lessons in civics starting in Kindergarten all the way through grade 12. Half the people that post on this forum lack any sort of basic understanding about our government, how it operates, why it operates like it does, and why it's important to protect it from tyranny.

- Doc



http://ecs.force.com/mbdata/mbstcprofan ... ST&st=Utah

State standards include civics or citizenship education Utah’s Core Standards for Social Studies (grade-level standards for K-6, course-specific standards for 7-12) includes a strand of standards for Citizenship in grades K-2. Civics content is embedded in the social studies content in later primary grades and is also embedded in the “United States Government and Citizenship” high school course. The goal of the United States Government and Citizenship course is to “foster informed, responsible participation in public life. Knowing how to be a good citizen is essential to the preservation and improvement of United States democracy. Upon completion of this course the student will understand the major ideas, protections, privileges, structures, and economic systems that affect the life of a citizen in the United States political system. This course is recommended for seniors due to their proximity to voting age.”

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:34 pm 
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Thanks for that, Mak. When I made that statement I was thinking more along the lines of just how fundamentally ignorant people are of federal and state structures and functions, federal and state departments and functions, federal and state judicial structures and functions, so on and so forth. I would love to see a curriculum that by the time a kid graduates high school he or she would have a solid sense of their relationship to their state and federal districts, how governments operate, and how government officials administrate the electorate’s will.

Then again as I type that out I realize it’s an impossible task, hence the need for undergrad and postgrad studies.

I guess interacting with certain posters here and across other forums forces me to understand our system is unknowable to most voters, and trying to explain to them how something might operate within the rule of law is pointless. How does one prepare a citizen to understand ethics and civics by the time they’re of voting age? To be an informed and responsible participant in our system? I dunno.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:10 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Man, it just hit me. We need lessons in civics starting in Kindergarten all the way through grade 12. Half the people that post on this forum lack any sort of basic understanding about our government, how it operates, why it operates like it does, and why it's important to protect it from tyranny.

- Doc


Listen, I do the best that I can, okay? I hate to tell you how long it's been since I took Civics in HS and I only remember exactly one thing from then. That's why I ask questions all the time here.

As to your other comment regarding state/federal so far as judicial/courts systems go... I suggest following murder cases like it's your job. It's all right there in the case as well as forensics and psychology. Works for me!

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:08 am 
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I haven't been posting as much in the last week. I have a deepening sense of depression about the future of this country. Trump will be impeached, but he will not be convicted in the Senate. The trial will further divide the country. Putin's objective will be fulfilled.

I still believe that the long moral arc of the universe bends towards justice, but we are living through the darkest Presidency in the history of this country. Republicans say the impeachment trial is the result of hatred, but the Democrats present facts and the Republicans scream that the facts are just an excuse for the emotional reasons to impeach.

When Trump screws the country, the Democrats fight back.

The Republicans grease up and bend over.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:05 pm 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
I haven't been posting as much in the last week. I have a deepening sense of depression about the future of this country. Trump will be impeached, but he will not be convicted in the Senate. The trial will further divide the country. Putin's objective will be fulfilled.

I still believe that the long moral arc of the universe bends towards justice, but we are living through the darkest Presidency in the history of this country. Republicans say the impeachment trial is the result of hatred, but the Democrats present facts and the Republicans scream that the facts are just an excuse for the emotional reasons to impeach.

When Trump screws the country, the Democrats fight back.

The Republicans grease up and bend over.

Geez, what a tragic case of #TDS you have...whatever occurred on November 07th, 2016 that has had you in such distress ever since?

How are you unable to discern, at your age and experience, that this theater has been contrived by the DNC and waning politic which ultimately met its demise at the end of the Clinton era (aka Nov 6th 2016)? Times have changed pops, and guys like you always seem to be remorseful about the whole thing....always thinking the horse-less carriage was blasphemy.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:07 pm 
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subgenius wrote:

How are you unable to discern, at your age and experience, that this theater has been contrived by the DNC and waning politic which ultimately met its demise at the end of the Clinton era (aka Nov 6th 2016)? Times have changed pops, and guys like you always seem to be remorseful about the whole thing....always thinking the horse-less carriage was blasphemy.


It was their final, most essential command.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:46 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
It was their final, most essential command.


Just stick with us, don’t believe the crap you see from these people, the fake news. Just remember, what you’re seeing and what you’re reading is not what’s happening


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:40 am 
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canpakes wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
It was their final, most essential command.


Just stick with us, don’t believe the crap you see from these people, the fake news. Just remember, what you’re seeing and what you’re reading is not what’s happening

What dolt use of a quote. What im seeing is happening but what any of us may read is not always what is happening... so spare us the derangement.
Apparently you're waaay older than i imagined... go figure that as "what's happening".

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Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:20 am 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
I have a deepening sense of depression about the future of this country.

I don't blame you. I saw a woman practically crying in an interview because she thought it was so unfair Trump was being impeached.

This is just one example of how ____ stupid Americans can be.

Republicans are traitors. That's what we've learned this year. There's no sugarcoating that, and it is not an exaggeration. The GOP is currently ____ all over the constitution. They can go ____ themselves and their idiot religion.

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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am 
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subgenius wrote:
What dolt use of a quote.

What a peculiar sentence structure.

Were you trying to use English?


subgenius wrote:
Apparently you're waaay older than i imagined...

Am I supposed to make hair jokes about you, now? : D


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:42 pm 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
I still believe that the long moral arc of the universe bends towards justice,
This feels like the liberal civic religion version of karma.

Justice does not necessarily win out in the end. Anywho, with the twin rise of global fascism and atmospheric temperatures and authoritarian nations not being known for playing nice with one other, maybe the remnants of humanity will be a little nicer towards one other post-global thermonuclear holocaust. Gotta look on the bright side.


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:20 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
This is the thread in which we watch American democracy fall into ruin.


I suspect American democracy ended many decades ago.

Quote:
Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., was given the cold shoulder on Thursday by multiple news outlets downplaying some strong polling of his. One new poll from California showed former Vice President Joe Biden and Sanders leading among Latino voters with 27 and 25 percent respectively. However, the graphic at the bottom of the screen read, "CNN Poll: Biden, Waren lead among California Latino voters" despite how Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., was polling only at ten percent in the demographic.

However, CNN wasn't the only one to knock the leading progressive. CBS News cited a new poll from New Hampshire that completely omitted Sanders from the graphic. Appearing on-screen: South Bend, Ind., Mayor Pete Buttigieg leading with 18 percent, Biden with 17 percent and Warren with 12 percent. Sanders, though, had 15 percent of support in that same poll.


https://www.foxnews.com/media/bernie-sa ... s-graphics

Jesus Christ!!!! It is very disturbing don't you think?


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 Post subject: Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:24 pm 
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I thought I'd bump this thread since this Reddit poster made this, sadly, accurate post:

Quote:
/u/Internetweakguy provides a list of all the authoritarian things Trump has done now that he feels himself above the law. "It's two weeks since he was acquitted by the senate and since then he's been on an absolute ____ rampage."


https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comme ... s/fi7msx3/

Quote:
[–]InternetWeakGuy

[+3]Florida [score hidden] 7 hours ago*32

He’s unlikely to be brave enough to try and pardon him now.

I don't think it matters any more. It's two weeks since he was acquitted by the senate and since then he's been on an absolute ____ rampage.

EDIT: Just this evening it came out that he's replacing the acting Director of National Intelligence because one of his staff briefed congress last week on Russian efforts to meddle in our current election. He's literally firing the DNI because he doesn't want Russian interference in the election reported privately to congress. It's ____ insane.

Trump fired Ambassador to the EU Gordan Sondland, who provided damaging testimony in the impeachment inquiry.

Trump fired Lt. Col. Alexander S. Vindman, who provided damaging testimony in the impeachment inquiry.

Trump called on Vindman to be investigated by the Pentagon.

Trump attacked his former Chief of Staff, John Kelly, for defending Vindman, saying Kelly had a "legal obligation" to "keep his mouth shut."

Trump ordered the removal of John C. Rood, a Pentagon official who told Congress that he had cleared the release of military aid to Ukraine. (Trump withheld it anyway.)

Trump called the Justice Department's sentencing recommendation for his longtime political adviser, Roger Stone, "horrible and very unfair."

Trump cheered Attorney General Bill Barr when he intervened in the Stone case to withdraw the sentencing recommendation. Four prosecutors on the case resigned in protest.

Trump attacked the judge presiding over Stone's case, Amy Berman Jackson, as biased, falsely accusing her of placing his former campaign manager Paul Manafort in solitary confinement.

Trump withdrew the nomination of Jessie Liu, who oversaw the Stone prosecution, to a top Treasury department position.

Trump asserted he has the legal right to order Barr to intervene in any criminal case.

Trump's Attorney General, William Barr, assigned an outside prosecutor to review the case against Michael Flynn, Trump's former National Security Adviser who pled guilty to lying to investigators. (Barr is also reviewing other "politically sensitive" cases.)

Trump commuted the sentence former Governor Rod Blagojevich, who was convicted of trying to sell a U.S. Senate seat. (Blagojevich appeared on Trump's reality show and wrote an op-ed for a conservative publication opposing impeachment.)

Trump pardoned Michael Milken who was sentenced to 10 years for securities fraud. Milken is a personal friend of Trump's Treasury Secretary, Steven Mnuchin.

Trump pardoned Bernie Kerik, who served three years in jail for tax fraud. Kerik frequently defends Trump on Fox News.

Trump granted clemency to Paul Pogue, who was convicted of tax evasion. Pogue is a major donor to Trump's campaign and the GOP.

Trump pardoned David Safavian, who was convicted of obstructing the investigation of corrupt lobbyist Jack Abramoff.

Trump commuted the sentence of Judith Negron, who was convicted of a $205 million Medicare fraud scheme and money laundering.

Trump diverted $3.8 billion in military funding to build the wall he said Mexico would pay for.

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