The disintegration of American democracy thread

[EAllusion]

This is the thread in which we watch American democracy fall into ruin.

[EAllusion]

I'll start by posting a few recent comments from Ezra Klein that I think are on point:

Donald Trump is brazen and crude. His abuses are blatant. His henchmen are largely clowns. His underlings are turning on him. He is the easiest possible test case for can our system hold a president accountable. And we are failing, because Republicans are failing. Lindsey Graham’s comments today [Nov 5th] should make you think one thing: it can happen here. Arguably, it is happening here, right now. Ambition was supposed to check ambition. But now ambition *protects* ambition. Parties cooperate across branches.

Americans have long believed we designed a form of government that protects us from the authoritarians and corruption that destroys so many other systems. What we’re seeing now is we haven’t. Or if we did, we've lost it. Imagine a president with Trump’s will to abuse power but a moderate level of strategic sense and savvy. A president who picked capable staff and rewarded loyalists. A president who knew what not to say, and when not to say it, to get his way. What defense do we have against them? Party loyalty creates vast zones in which corruption and abuse fester unchecked. That corruption and abuse can increase the party’s power — as Trump sought to do here —and further weaken oversight, as the out-party never has the strength to exercise it. Forget our myths and stories. Look at what is happening in front of us. If we saw this in another country, we would see where it was, eventually, going to lead.

We are not special. There is no magic to our structure. Our system, in its modern form, depends on parties to sometimes put the country's interest before their own. If they don't, corruption will consume us. And in today's Republican Party, we are seeing how, and why.

[EAllusion]

Trump or no Trump, I think there is a very good chance America is fully consumed by an authoritarian party in the not too distant future. The institutional checks do not exist to stop it. Without institutional checks, it's only a matter of time before authoritarians capture democratic processes and use them to subvert the system itself. We've watched it happen recently several times over around the globe. There's no reason to think it cannot and is not happening here. Whatever guardrails existed, if only because people imagined they exist, we've already got a situation demonstrating they do not.

It will be serendipity if meaningful checks are put back in place before the system is able to be taken advantage of by people in a proto-authoritarian political organization that exists right now and wields massive power. We're probably screwed.

[ajax18]

If by "the disintegration of American democracy," you mean overturning the results of a democratic election, than I would agree that American democracy is disintegrating. Like I said before, if any future president's party loses control of the House of Representatives, he will be impeached. That's where we're at in partisan sleezy Chicago style politics. That's the precedent we're setting. Is this because the vice president is such a great alternative for the impeaching party? No, but it sure helps to obstruct the agenda of the current regime either way. How does anything else get done in this type of cold civil war situation?

There are no high crimes nor misdemeanors. You've wanted to impeach this president before he ever took the oath of office because you disagree with his politics and nothing more.

The fact that you guys have hated and continue to hate Trump so much gives me more and more confidence he's doing his job right. I don't even follow anything else. I can see it all right here at Mormondiscussions.

I'd propose a peaceful nonviolent secession into separate countries. Why can't that be an option? Do we need each other militarily? I don't think we do anymore.

[Maksutov]

If by "the disintegration of American democracy," you mean overturning the results of a democratic election, than I would agree that American democracy is disintegrating.

There are no high crimes nor misdemeanors. You've wanted to impeach this president before he ever took the oath of office because you disagree with his politics and nothing more.

First a manipulative dishonest attempt at reframing the discussion.

Then two lies in swift succession.

I would say that this thread is unfolding perfectly as per the subject.

[EAllusion]

If by "the disintegration of American democracy," you mean overturning the results of a democratic election,

Why does impeachment exist in the Constitution if actually impeaching someone is by default bad?

That's where we're at in partisan sleezy Chicago style politics. That's the precedent we're setting.

The President is very likely to be saved by the Senate Ajax. Relax. But, extorting a foreign power so they will manufacture a scandal about your political opponent is bad. Very bad. As are a few other dozen things we could talk about in a different thread. Perhaps you should go there instead.

[Dr Exiled]

You're so conspiratorial EAllusion. 4 chan for democrats anyone?What's your proof of this supposed authoritarianism that is going to force us into some sort of fascist government? Is it just presumed like you claimed it was with Clinton's utterly baseless Russian puppet claims she recently made? If it is true as you claim, how do we deal with it? Should a democratic party force come in and bring the very authoritarianism you supposedly hate to stop the Trump authoritarianism? How about we deal with the issues people want, get a people's candidate, sware off of corporate money and vote out this Trump clown in 2020? Voter turnout should easily beat Trump, if the democrat super delegates can go against their corporate donors.

[huckelberry]

You're so conspiratorial EAllusion. 4 chan for democrats anyone?What's your proof of this supposed authoritarianism that is going to force us into some sort of fascist government? Is it just presumed like you claimed it was with Clinton's utterly baseless Russian puppet claims she recently made? If it is true as you claim, how do we deal with it? Should a democratic party force come in and bring the very authoritarianism you supposedly hate to stop the Trump authoritarianism? How about we deal with the issues people want, get a people's candidate, sware off of corporate money and vote out this Trump clown in 2020? Voter turnout should easily beat Trump, if the democrat super delegates can go against their corporate donors.

Exilded, Corporations are a large and important reality of America or the larger industrial world. Are you sure it is a good idea to avoid their money and influence? (aside from the consideration that that cannot happen no matter how long one pouts about it)

[Dr. Shades]

Trump or no Trump, I think there is a very good chance America is fully consumed by an authoritarian party in the not too distant future.

Does this mean that you would vote for a third party candidate?

[moksha]

I'd propose a peaceful nonviolent secession into separate countries. Why can't that be an option? Do we need each other militarily? I don't think we do anymore.

I imagine you would have favored the Confederacy joining the Axis powers in World War II. Today, the New Confederacy would have to be content with joining Russia, Syria, and North Korea.

[ajax18]

I'd propose a peaceful nonviolent secession into separate countries. Why can't that be an option? Do we need each other militarily? I don't think we do anymore.

I imagine you would have favored the Confederacy joining the Axis powers in World War II. Today, the New Confederacy would have to be content with joining Russia, Syria, and North Korea.

My post didn't work so I apologize in advance for repeating myself. I think the idea with succession is being independent of these foreign alliances.

The logistics of gathering people of like minded beliefs and values together geographically would have its share of challenges, but in my mind its preferable to the insanity of talking to brick walls day after day. It's certainly preferable to killing each other

Most of the elites keep their money in offshore tax havens safely away from predatory governments. Congress still seems to be able to manage to make middle class people pay a higher tax percentage than the middle class. Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Maxine Waters, they have all the gold and whoever has the gold makes the rules. That's the golden rule they keep talking about. These types will sorely miss the middle class labor that has fled to the Conservative States of America. But poorer Democrats will just fine. If not perhaps, they'll start to see the error in their politics and come back to live with the hated rednecks from Indiana and have a desire to become brothers again.

[Some Schmo]

I'd propose a peaceful nonviolent secession into separate countries. Why can't that be an option? Do we need each other militarily? I don't think we do anymore.

Sounds good. If the Trump supporters would now make their way to West Virginia and let the rest of the country get on with not being part of an Idiotsville, that would be great.

[ajax18]

I'd propose a peaceful nonviolent secession into separate countries. Why can't that be an option? Do we need each other militarily? I don't think we do anymore.

Sounds good. If the Trump supporters would now make their way to West Virginia and let the rest of the country get on with not being part of an Idiotsville, that would be great.

We'll take the entire red area of the electoral map.

[Some Schmo]

Sounds good. If the Trump supporters would now make their way to West Virginia and let the rest of the country get on with not being part of an Idiotsville, that would be great.

We'll take the entire red area of the electoral map.

You mean all the places with no infrastructure? Sure, have at it, but let's have orderly evacuations out of all the major cities and suburbs, please. I'm sure there's a cave somewhere nearby for all of you.

[ajax18]

You mean all the places with no infrastructure? Sure, have at it, but let's have orderly evacuations out of all the major cities and suburbs, please. I'm sure there's a cave somewhere nearby for all of you.

Businesses are evacuating California already. At this point I'd be happy to trade Honduras with you for Washington D.C. Within a couple generations we'd have to build a wall to keep illegal immigrants out of Honduras.

[Some Schmo]

At this point I'd be happy to trade Honduras with you for Washington D.C. Within a couple generations we'd have to build a wall to keep illegal immigrants out of Honduras.

Cool. Off you go then. Say hi to Hernández for me.

[Some Schmo]

I just emailed Lindsay Graham and asked if he changes Trump's diaper before kissing his ass or if he puckers up to his ____ crack.

Apparently, he's too busy to answer me personally.

[EAllusion]

Businesses are evacuating California already. At this point I'd be happy to trade Honduras with you for Washington D.C. Within a couple generations we'd have to build a wall to keep illegal immigrants out of Honduras.

Oh, yeah. The bay area is a ghost town that no wealthy person or business wants to go by. That's why it is so cheap to live there.

Dividing up the country where one half gets nearly all the wealth and the other half gets nearly all the land, which is what you are proposing, would result in a non-peaceful resolution very quickly.

If you want to discuss your desire for secession, feel free to start a thread.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'd propose a peaceful nonviolent secession into separate countries.

I imagine you would have favored the Confederacy joining the Axis powers in World War II. Today, the New Confederacy would have to be content with joining Russia, Syria, and North Korea.

My post didn't work so I apologize in advance for repeating myself. I think the idea with succession is being independent of these foreign alliances.

The logistics of gathering people of like minded beliefs and values together geographically would have its share of challenges, but in my mind its preferable to the insanity of talking to brick walls day after day. It's certainly preferable to killing each other

Most of the elites keep their money in offshore tax havens safely away from predatory governments. Congress still seems to be able to manage to make middle class people pay a higher tax percentage than the middle class. Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Maxine Waters, they have all the gold and whoever has the gold makes the rules. That's the golden rule they keep talking about. These types will sorely miss the middle class labor that has fled to the Conservative States of America. But poorer Democrats will just fine. If not perhaps, they'll start to see the error in their politics and come back to live with the hated rednecks from Indiana and have a desire to become brothers again.

If anyone is interested, this latest ‘red pill’ thread on 4chan has some posts by a ‘Beaver’ breaking down why a confederation is necessary. You’ll see Ajax’s ideology summarized nicely. It’s a bit of a read, so grab some coffee and settle in:

http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/2328 ... ill-thread

I should note that all of the Beaver discourses cover every aspect of Nu Fascism, or White Nationalism, or White Supremacy, or whatever term they come up with these days. You’ll have to scroll down a bit to get to the first essay, but it’s worth it if you truly want to understand why the GOP appeals to someone like Ajax.

- Doc

[Smokey]

Be careful, Boomer friend. I was once like you.

There is no cure for the Red Pill.

[Maksutov]

Be careful, Boomer friend. I was once like you.

There is no cure for the Red Pill.

Oooooooooh. That is so deep. And yet the only reason you even know about Heisenberg is because of Dan Peterson.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... igion.html

We have real physicists here on the board. I dare you to talk to them about this. Your newfound scientific interest is about as deep and authentic and accomplished as your historical knowledge, little Earl.