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 Post subject: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:50 pm 
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Regarding the handling of the latest whistleblower complaint, it seems to me that ultimately Attorney General Barr should be facing jail time for his handling of it (subverting the law to protect Trump). This should also be one more item on the Trump bill of impeachment.

Whatever it is that Barr is sitting on must be a doozie for Barr to so flagrantly break the law.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:33 pm 
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Yes, ignore the whole Biden threats to keep his son's corrupt company safe and focus on the fact that there was no quid-pro-quo from Trump.
Are you really not paying any attention?

#2020willmakeyousosad

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:21 pm 
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I guess you've given up on the whole Russian collusion as an avenue to overturn the 2016 election at this point?

I'm sorry your hopes of inflicting pain upon working people's paychecks and giving it to those who won't work has been pushed back. The numbers are on your side though. It just might take a little longer than you hoped. Until then, why not do as I did at the interstate entrance stoplight yesterday. The bum approached me and I handed him a business card to the Randstadt temp agency.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:23 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Yes, ignore the whole Biden threats to keep his son's corrupt company safe and focus on the fact that there was no quid-pro-quo from Trump.
Are you really not paying any attention?

#2020willmakeyousosad


Why wasn't Biden investigated by the Republican-held Congress?

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:34 pm 
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The real problem with holding Trump accountable is that his supporters are religious zealots (i. e. not that bright and willing to believe ____ anything). When your brain has been infected with nonsense, Trump seems like a good idea. You might even think god sent him.

Which implies you have no integrity because you don't really know what it means. In fact, you can't even imagine having integrity, because the concept of living an honest life is the stuff of fairy tales in your addled world view. Religion is a morality costume you wear thinking people can't see through it, a delusional shortcut to respectability, but you don't really believe in it. How could you, when you live such a dishonest life?

Since supporting Trump requires dishonesty, only the idiotically religious can really pull it off. And since there are so many of them in this country, we have to wait for the asshole to die, which won't be the punishment he deserves, but it will be the relief America needs.

It's like America ____ it's pants, and half the country enjoys the warmth so much they can't even smell it anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:42 pm 
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Quote:
The real problem with holding Trump accountable is that his supporters are religious zealots (i. e. not that bright and willing to believe ____ anything).


The real problem for you with Trump is that he won and now you can't find a way to undo it.

Donald Trump has tapped into something that made him trounce the old guard in the Republican party. Many people see some wisdom in the age old standard of having a national border and enforcing it. There hasn't been a politician in 70 years who even considered enforcing the border. Everyone thought doing so was a political death sentence. The left could just call you racist and you'd be done, no superpac, no campaign money, just political death. Even Republicans contend that running a huge trade imbalance with China is the beauty of free market capitalism. Then this guy comes and campaigns on the idea of economic nationalism and leveling the playing field with China. Surely he'll be trounced in the primaries right? Nope, people have a common sense understanding that if you're just buying and not producing, you'll eventually have nothing.

The cudgel of racism couldn't beat the arguments of economic nationalism. It didn't win you the 2016 election and I'm not sure your party understands that. They're likely to lose in 2020 again. You need to come up with something better than saying putting America first is racism.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:53 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Yes, ignore the whole Biden threats to keep his son's corrupt company safe and focus on the fact that there was no quid-pro-quo from Trump.
Are you really not paying any attention?

#2020willmakeyousosad

Do you honestly believe this is the narrative? Given there was a coalition of western nations calling for the removal of Viktor Shokin as Prosecutor General, and his removal was directly tied to the role he was playing in NOT prosecuting the kind of crimes alleged against Berisma, the company that had hired Hunter Biden as a consultant among other consultants? The idea Joe Biden was trying to get the guy out who was investigating the firm Hunter had been hired at to protect Hunter Biden or aid his client is simply stupid. Shokin staying on a PG would have been the best means of accomplishing that aim if that were Joe Biden's aim. The entire argument is just straight up ____ dumb.

Here's an article from the time that might help show this was about removing a bad prosecutor hamstringing Ukrainian efforts to reform at a time the US was trying to win over the Ukraine from Russian influence.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/e ... -1.2591190

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:57 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Regarding the handling of the latest whistleblower complaint, it seems to me that ultimately Attorney General Barr should be facing jail time for his handling of it (subverting the law to protect Trump). This should also be one more item on the Trump bill of impeachment.

Whatever it is that Barr is sitting on must be a doozie for Barr to so flagrantly break the law.

I do want to add I don't agree with the OP. Due process is a principle on which our Republic lives or dies. Should there be an investigation? Sure. It sounds like something like that is underway. But it's not appropriate to say Barr should face jail time because of allegations and rumors.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:30 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
But it's not appropriate to say Barr should face jail time because of allegations and rumors.

Not letting the Acting Director of National Intelligence and the Inspector General perform their duties, as required by statute, of informing the Senate and House Intelligence Committees of credible and urgent information places Barr in the position of a lawbreaker.

How much leeway should Attorney General Barr be given in hiding such information? His job is not to be a criminal defense attorney fixer for Trump.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:47 pm 
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Penguin, you've already convicted and want judgement when the investigation is just beginning. Being the mirrored image of a Neocon Benghazi "locker her up" -type is a bad look.

It also has the disadvantage of being fatal to the Republic if that becomes the norm. I agree it looks bad and needs investigating. But it's just getting started and we're learning more every day. I suggest it is prudent to back off on saying he needs jail time out of the gate because locking up political foes because they are foes and can be accused of doing bad things is what tyrants and despots do.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:33 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
I suggest it is prudent to back off on saying he needs jail time out of the gate because locking up political foes because they are foes and can be accused of doing bad things is what tyrants and despots do.

Honor, that jail idea for wrongdoing was more or less hyperbole. Trump has already said he will be forthcoming with pardons for everyone who aids and abets him in withholding information.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:18 am 
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May I suggest that you and your penguin friends Naruto run to take over the Justice Department? They can’t stop you all. And even if you took casualties, now that your genomes have been fully sequenced, we could just make more. http://www.sci-news.com/genetics/pengui ... 07614.html

AG Moksha. Has a nice ring to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:02 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
Penguin, you've already convicted and want judgement when the investigation is just beginning. Being the mirrored image of a Neocon Benghazi "locker her up" -type is a bad look.


Barr has already violated the law honor. That's out in the open. We don't need an investigation of that part to know it happened anymore than if we would if he shot someone on 5th avenue on live TV. So the question shifts to whether what he's doing is an offense that is (or ought) to be subject to jail time. "Wait for the investigation" is also a strange call on your part when what's being discussed here is Barr actively suppressing the investigation.

This is significantly different than Benghazi in that there was no validated underlying crime. It does prove the value of ginned up pseudo-scandals, though. There's always someone who is willing to equate actual scandals with fake ones and declare a pox upon both their houses.


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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:08 am 
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ajax18 wrote:
Quote:
The real problem with holding Trump accountable is that his supporters are religious zealots (i. e. not that bright and willing to believe ____ anything).


The real problem for you with Trump is that he won and now you can't find a way to undo it.

Donald Trump has tapped into something that... blah blah blah religious nonsense.

Like I said, you have to be not that bright and willing to believe ____ anything.

I didn't need you to demonstrate, but thanks anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:19 am 
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Hey POOM
Perfume on my Mind wrote:
The real problem with holding Trump accountable is that his supporters are religious zealots (i. e. not that bright and willing to believe ____ anything). When your brain has been infected with nonsense, Trump seems like a good idea. You might even think god sent him.

Which implies you have no integrity because you don't really know what it means. In fact, you can't even imagine having integrity, because the concept of living an honest life is the stuff of fairy tales in your addled world view. Religion is a morality costume you wear thinking people can't see through it, a delusional shortcut to respectability, but you don't really believe in it. How could you, when you live such a dishonest life?

Since supporting Trump requires dishonesty, only the idiotically religious can really pull it off. And since there are so many of them in this country, we have to wait for the asshole to die, which won't be the punishment he deserves, but it will be the relief America needs.

It's like America ____ it's pants, and half the country enjoys the warmth so much they can't even smell it anymore.


This kind of blatant and gross bigotry, wildly broad intolerance and deep seated fuming hatred of other american citizens/human beings has played a huge role in dividing this country to it's current unbridgeable position - More and more of this can only turn an already unbridgeable divide into a country that is destroyed beyond any hope of repair.


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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:27 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
It does prove the value of ginned up pseudo-scandals, though. There's always someone who is willing to equate actual scandals with fake ones and declare a pox upon both their houses.

I know this is your thing and see any call for not charging off in a partisan manner as misguided attempts at moderation. But the fact is the justice department is claiming the reported whistleblowing doesn't meet the standards that require the claim be presented to Congress. Sound fishy? Sure. But it isn't blatant obvious wrong doing akin to shooting someone in the street as you claim. It's clearly in the process of being investigated, by the media by attempts to get disclosure for Congress, etc.

Saying Barr deserves jail time at this juncture is just partisan over reach and frankly shows that certain behaviours on the part of Conservatives has eroded commitments to fundamental principles of democracy because it just isn't fair they won't play by the rules. That's your other thing, saying Democrats need to start playing dirty, right?

It's bad for the country to jump over due process or it's equivilent and form a mob demanding a political opponents head. It just is.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:34 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Hey POOM
Perfume on my Mind wrote:
The real problem with holding Trump accountable is that his supporters are religious zealots (i. e. not that bright and willing to believe ____ anything). When your brain has been infected with nonsense, Trump seems like a good idea. You might even think god sent him.

Which implies you have no integrity because you don't really know what it means. In fact, you can't even imagine having integrity, because the concept of living an honest life is the stuff of fairy tales in your addled world view. Religion is a morality costume you wear thinking people can't see through it, a delusional shortcut to respectability, but you don't really believe in it. How could you, when you live such a dishonest life?

Since supporting Trump requires dishonesty, only the idiotically religious can really pull it off. And since there are so many of them in this country, we have to wait for the asshole to die, which won't be the punishment he deserves, but it will be the relief America needs.

It's like America ____ it's pants, and half the country enjoys the warmth so much they can't even smell it anymore.


This kind of blatant and gross bigotry, wildly broad intolerance and deep seated fuming hatred of other american citizens/human beings has played a huge role in dividing this country to it's current unbridgeable position - More and more of this can only turn an already unbridgeable divide into a country that is destroyed beyond any hope of repair.


Again. You can't see to find your voice when the Trump administration is making a mockery of your democratic and judicial institutions for personal profit, but goddamn if you aren't doing a triple gainer onto your swooning couch when someone bitches about the base that put them into power.

Jesus, Ceeboo. Get some perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:49 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
I know this is your thing and see any call for not charging off in a partisan manner as misguided attempts at moderation. But the fact is the justice department is claiming the reported whistleblowing doesn't meet the standards that require the claim be presented to Congress.


Well, if you can't trust Barr, then who can you trust?

Here's the fun thing, though. That's false. We already know the rationale they've given for that judgement is false. One might say, "lie." No further information needs to come out to know that is false. If basis for your condemnation of people criticizing Barr's illegal conduct is simply a misguided understanding of what they've asserted, then that's not a great look.

Quote:
It's clearly in the process of being investigated, by the media by attempts to get disclosure for Congress, etc.

The issue under discussion is specifically the thing that prevents Congress from being able to investigate in the way you say needs to happen. It's a perfect self-contained loop. We have to wait for Congress to investigate this illegal obstruction of the investigation, which is currently not happening because of the illegal obstruction of the investigation.

Quote:
That's your other thing, saying Democrats need to start playing dirty, right?
I think that's a misleading description of what I've said.


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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:16 am 
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Hey Doc
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Again. You can't see to find your voice when the Trump administration is making a mockery of your democratic and judicial institutions for personal profit

I don't support Trump - In addition to other things, I think he has a serious ego problem and I think he has failed mightily in some of the very important and key roles as the President (Leadership, Uniting, etc)

Quote:
but goddamn if you aren't doing a triple gainer onto your swooning couch when someone bitches about the base that put them into power.

"Bitching?"
That's because I think the "bitching" - as you say - in fantastically unreasonable, irrational, bigoted, intolerant and deeply destructive to all the people who live in this country.

Quote:
Jesus, Ceeboo. Get some perspective.

I'll try but I'm curious to learn more about your perspective. Which parts of the above post did you find to be merely, as you conveniently labeled, "bitching?"


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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:27 am 
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This shouldn't have to be said, but...

The problem with the "lock her up" mantra for Hillary Clinton was that there was no evidence she did anything that warranted her being put in prison. Because of this, calls to jail her functioned as an assertion that political opponents should be jailed for being poltiical opponents, which itself is attack on the core of democracy. It undermines the ability to have political dissent and free and fair elections.

You don't need to think it is always wrong for political actors to face jail time to see this. It is the case that political actors do occasionally engage in conduct that does warrant them going to jail. Saying that they should be held accountable is not the same as calling on Clinton to be locked up.

Equating a desire for Clinton to go to jail with a desire for members of what effectively is a crime syndicate in Trump-world to go to jail is obnoxious.


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 Post subject: Re: Barr to jail, Trump to impeachment
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:57 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
I know this is your thing and see any call for not charging off in a partisan manner as misguided attempts at moderation. But the fact is the justice department is claiming the reported whistleblowing doesn't meet the standards that require the claim be presented to Congress.


Well, if you can't trust Barr, then who can you trust?

Here's the fun thing, though. That's false. We already know the rationale they've given for that judgement is false. One might say, "lie." No further information needs to come out to know that is false. If basis for your condemnation of people criticizing Barr's illegal conduct is simply a misguided understanding of what they've asserted, then that's not a great look.

We know the rationale is false, huh? Interesting. I understand it appears that way but since the claim isn't public yet it is suspicion not known fact. You're getting ahead of yourself, EAllusion. I'm not condemning people criticizing Barr's illegal conduct. I'm arguing that assuming it is illegal and we jump straight to calling for him to be in jail is circumventing one of the fundamental pillars of our republic. Because it is. You know that. You're just assuming what you believe is already proven fact. Could be it turns out that way, and frankly it looks bad. But the process is essential to what makes the system of government we've upheld and champion what it is.

Quote:
Quote:
It's clearly in the process of being investigated, by the media by attempts to get disclosure for Congress, etc.

The issue under discussion is specifically the thing that prevents Congress from being able to investigate in the way you say needs to happen. It's a perfect self-contained loop. We have to wait for Congress to investigate this illegal obstruction of the investigation, which is currently not happening because of the illegal obstruction of the investigation.
It's certainly problematic. But again, jumping straight to Barr belongs in jail before we get to the point of demonstrated factual basis for this claim is premature and partisan.

Quote:
Quote:
That's your other thing, saying Democrats need to start playing dirty, right?
I think that's a misleading description of what I've said.

Interesting given that echoes my view of you saying any argument for procedure over partisanship is just false attempts at moderation. It's a defense of democratic processes over partisanship. You don't let that get in your way when you just know you're right so see anything that isn't jumping straight over your assumptions to the finale as wrongheaded. So let's say I'm unsympathetic if you think you are being misrepresented.

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