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 Post subject: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:14 am 
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WASHINGTON — President Trump called for Ukraine and China to investigate his political rival, Joe Biden, doubling down on his efforts to push foreign countries to undertake probes that could benefit his re-election campaign.

Speaking to reporters on the South Lawn of the White House on Thursday, Mr. Trump called for Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to lead the charge for a Biden investigation.

The president said that China should start an investigation of the Bidens, alleging that “what happened to China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-urges-ukraine-china-to-investigate-the-bidens/ar-AAIdUN2?

More requests today for foreign governments to get involved in US election politics.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:16 pm 
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Its breathtaking how Trump just makes things up out of thin air and expects everyone to believe them without a scrap of supporting evidence. Almost nothing that comes out of his mouth has any firm relation to reality. It just doesn't seem to matter to him whether anything he claims is true or not. He has even been observed to lie when telling the truth would have served him better! I get the strong impression at times that some of his base supporters actually admire his readiness to lie about almost anything. It is as if they view his constant lying as merely his bold and admirable way of exercising his 1st Amendment constitutional right of freedom of speech!

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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:07 pm 
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It will be interesting to see how China reacts to this request to help meddle in the American elections.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:13 pm 
Valiant A

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:01 pm
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moksha wrote:
It will be interesting to see how China reacts to this request to help meddle in the American elections.


It is pretty bad now....

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/ ... 78336?s=20

Trump camp explained to China that it would create a lot of goodwill with the President if they help him investigate corruption with the Bidens.

HFS.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:25 pm 
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Don't need these "secrets uncovered" stories when Trump is doing it out in the open, but:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/politics ... index.html


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:29 pm 
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One thing to think about as the US slides into right-wing autocracy is that right now foreign governments have to calculate the risks of Trump losing if they go in on aiding his election efforts. That possibility probably acts as a deterrent against some of the more brazen efforts, for now. The thing about authoritarian takeovers, though, is eventually they strong-arm themselves into semi-permanent control of public opinion and election machinery. At that point, the risk of helping install authoritarian allies is much lower for those foreign governments. Once the grip tightens, you get a feedback loop of authoritarian back-scratching.

This kind of stuff is walking us right off a plank.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:33 pm 
Valiant A

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Can you imagine how difficult it must be to work for the White House and constantly formulate and put out a defense just to watch this idiot throw it out the window? For days we were told the President never explicitly said anything about investigating the Bidens, and then today he says this in front of all the cameras:

“China should start an investigation into the Bidens, because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine."

It just blows me away all the hypocrisy here because Trump and his cleanup crew are whining about people/media making assumptions and passing judgment on him for a phone call even though there is tons of evidence supporting their whistleblower complaint, yet at the same time he and his cleanup crew will assert with absolute certainty that the Bidens have to be guilty of some mysterious crimes they summarize lazily as "corruption" in Ukraine and now in China!


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:51 pm 
Valiant A

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This stuff is just Benghazi all over again. I mean really. The only evidence they have that the Bidens did anything wrong is based on "documents" that John Solomon and Rudy Giuliani supposedly acquired, and they're only sharing with FOX News.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Icarus wrote:
Can you imagine how difficult it must be to work for the White House and constantly formulate and put out a defense just to watch this idiot throw it out the window? For days we were told the President never explicitly said anything about investigating the Bidens, and then today he says this in front of all the cameras:

“China should start an investigation into the Bidens, because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine."

It just blows me away all the hypocrisy here because Trump and his cleanup crew are whining about people/media making assumptions and passing judgment on him for a phone call even though there is tons of evidence supporting their whistleblower complaint, yet at the same time he and his cleanup crew will assert with absolute certainty that the Bidens have to be guilty of some mysterious crimes they summarize lazily as "corruption" in Ukraine and now in China!

I think their strategy is to throw up an endless barrage of lies, even if they self-contradict one another, and watch as supporters find the rationales that they like and bystanders get lost in a fog of confusion and uncertainty.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:05 pm 
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I think Biden’s son is wholly unqualified for the job he has with Rosemont Seneca Partners, and something is definitely ____ with regard to Ukraine.

That said, anyone on the Right who says they care about character, ____ business deals, and influence peddling can ____ the right off. Fuuuuuuuuuuck you.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:46 pm 
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Someone pointed out that he just handed the Chinese a huge negotiating (dare I say Trump?) card. They can now state their own quid pro quo: You want our help with Biden? Let's talk about the size of some of your tariffs...

Think how far we have come: In the Spring of 2016, Trump didn't know anyone in Russia. Now he feels free to ask any foreign nation publicly to assist in his campaign against the man who poses a great threat to the possibility of a second term. I think this is actually by design. Recently I said that we have entered the age of the fabulist. By repeating his behavior over and over, Trump attempts to make it normal and therefore not illegal. This tactic has been used before:

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If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.
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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:25 pm 
Valiant A

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I think Biden’s son is wholly unqualified for the job he has with Rosemont Seneca Partners, and something is definitely ____ with regard to Ukraine.

That said, anyone on the Right who says they care about character, ____ business deals, and influence peddling can ____ the right off. Fuuuuuuuuuuck you.

- Doc


Hunter Biden was hired for the purpose of cleaning up their image with a big name.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:04 pm 
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I would guess that if China intervenes at all in next year's elections, they will probably do their darnedest to influence the electorate against Trump rather than for him. They surely know by now, as do most other world leaders, that Trump can't be counted on to stick to or honor any deal he makes with anyone. He is as likely as not to back out of any deal or promise he makes on some random whim or tantrum. I'm sure that all but a few world leaders would be relieved to see him deposed or voted out of office, especially our closest allies.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:12 pm 
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You know just because Biden is running for president that shouldn't make him immune to being investigated.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:49 pm 
Valiant A

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ajax18 wrote:
You know just because Biden is running for president that shouldn't make him immune to being investigated.


Are you really going to be disingenuous about this and act like anyone has ever argued this position?

The fact is there is no reason to investigate Biden. Trump has his lunatic lawyer prancing all over the globe soliciting help from other nations to try to make something out of nothing. Trump's own special envoy to Ukraine even tried to warn Giuliani that this conspiracy theory has no credibility.

The only reason Trump is having him do this is to benefit himself politically because he knows Biden is crushing him in all the head to head polls.

Tonight's document dump is devastating to Trump. CNN and MSNBC are detailing the reporting and providing the text messages Volker disclosed which provides the smoking gun for bribery, and then I flip over to FOX News and they're talking about sanctuary cities and how much money Democrats have failed to raise.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:17 pm 
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By almost all accounts there is no evidence that Hunter Biden did anything wrong or illegal in the Ukraine. He helped to force the resignation of a thoroughly corrupt prosecutor who was refusing to investigate and prosecute blatant corruption in that country. For that he was commended by the entire European community, including the Ukrainian government. It is fairly obvious that what Trump was trying to do was blackmail Ukrainian leadership into inventing some false pretext to discredit the Bidens in order to hurt Biden's electoral prospects. Biden is not my first choice for president, but Trump's actions to discredit him are clearly immoral and illegal.

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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:22 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
By almost all accounts there is no evidence that Hunter Biden did anything wrong or illegal in the Ukraine. He helped to force the resignation of a thoroughly corrupt prosecutor who was refusing to investigate and prosecute blatant corruption in that country. For that he was commended by the entire European community, including the Ukrainian government. It is fairly obvious that what Trump was trying to do was blackmail Ukrainian leadership into inventing some false pretext to discredit the Bidens in order to hurt Biden's electoral prospects. Biden is not my first choice for president, but Trump's actions to discredit him are clearly immoral and illegal.


What Trump is doing right now is playing political theater. Why would he send (as mentioned previously by another poster) his people all over the globe to dig up dirt on Joe and Hunter Biden?

Because he can afford to fund the game he's playing.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:23 pm 
Valiant A

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Gunnar wrote:
By almost all accounts there is no evidence that Hunter Biden did anything wrong or illegal in the Ukraine. He helped to force the resignation of a thoroughly corrupt prosecutor who was refusing to investigate and prosecute blatant corruption in that country. For that he was commended by the entire European community, including the Ukrainian government. It is fairly obvious that what Trump was trying to do was blackmail Ukrainian leadership into inventing some false pretext to discredit the Bidens in order to hurt Biden's electoral prospects. Biden is not my first choice for president, but Trump's actions to discredit him are clearly immoral and illegal.


Gordon Sondland donated $1 million to Trump's campaign and then he was tapped as Ambassador to the EU. But that's not corrupt at all. It is only corruption when a former Democrat VP has a son who gets a job as a private citizen working in another country.

The narrative played out by Giuliani and Trump is nothing short of dishonest. They're whining that people are accusing them of things "without proof" while at the same time accusing the Bidens of things without proof. They haven't even specifically said what it is they think they did that was illegal. They just associate a popular Democrat name with money and that seems to serve their purposes of energizing a low information base.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:24 pm 
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Icarus wrote:
The fact is there is no reason to investigate Biden. Trump has his lunatic lawyer prancing all over the globe soliciting help from other nations to try to make something out of nothing. Trump's own special envoy to Ukraine even tried to warn Giuliani that this conspiracy theory has no credibility.

The only reason Trump is having him do this is to benefit himself politically because he knows Biden is crushing him in all the head to head polls.


He's scared crapless of Biden and he has the bucks to put on a show that makes it look like there's something where nothing exists.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:37 am 
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Icarus wrote:
Gunnar wrote:
By almost all accounts there is no evidence that Hunter Biden did anything wrong or illegal in the Ukraine. He helped to force the resignation of a thoroughly corrupt prosecutor who was refusing to investigate and prosecute blatant corruption in that country. For that he was commended by the entire European community, including the Ukrainian government. It is fairly obvious that what Trump was trying to do was blackmail Ukrainian leadership into inventing some false pretext to discredit the Bidens in order to hurt Biden's electoral prospects. Biden is not my first choice for president, but Trump's actions to discredit him are clearly immoral and illegal.


Gordon Sondland donated $1 million to Trump's campaign and then he was tapped as Ambassador to the EU. But that's not corrupt at all. It is only corruption when a former Democrat VP has a son who gets a job as a private citizen working in another country.

The narrative played out by Giuliani and Trump is nothing short of dishonest. They're whining that people are accusing them of things "without proof" while at the same time accusing the Bidens of things without proof. They haven't even specifically said what it is they think they did that was illegal. They just associate a popular Democrat name with money and that seems to serve their purposes of energizing a low information base.

Yup, that's pretty much the way I understand it too.

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― Harlan Ellison


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 Post subject: Re: Trump asks Ukraine and China dirt on Biden
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:52 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
He's scared crapless of Biden and he has the bucks to put on a show that makes it look like there's something where nothing exists.

Apparently, they have also been seeking dirt on Senator Warren.

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