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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:28 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
.. how trustworthy were the gospels of the New Testament in declaring the core message of Christianity. ....

Many modern scholars agree those who built a church up around Jesus after his death believed he was the Jewish Messiah. This would mean they believed Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning the Messiah descendant of King David, being born in Bethlehem, and that he would come to the people riding a donkey or ass. And, he'll be raised from the dead.

To make a case for why the New Testament is a poor witness for Jesus' resurrection, let's first look at how the New Testament describes another event in Jesus' life that would require fulfilling Messianic prophecy - his birth.

.... suggests the earliest sources about Christ's life in circulation did not include a birth narrative. The scholarly suggestion is that there wasn't a codified version of the Nativity at the time of their writing. But the Messiah has to fulfill certain prophecies at his birth. What to do? Most likely, both authors took from legends being shared and fit them together as best they could. They may also have invented pieces of the story from whole cloth.

I if there is a commonly understood event in Jesus’ life and it has been recorded in one of the source gospels, it is likely to show up as common to Matthew and Luke. But absent such an account, they will fill in the gaps with an eye to ensuring the narrative fulfills Messianic prophecy.

Since the Messiah has to be raised from the dead, and Jesus was the Messiah, it is only natural that both accounts tell us this is so. Both Matthew and Luke had Mark as a source, so we should expect to see Mark’s narrative in the account of the passion leading to the resurrection.
......


Honorentheos, I did have a couple of small thoughts about this portion of your essay. I think your comments about the birth stories make sense. I am puzzled about the messiah having to be raised from the dead. I cannot back up or find evidence of the existence of any such belief. The beliefs about Messiah were not codified and uniform so perhaps some people thought such a thing, (a handful of desciples of Jesus?) If it existed elsewhere why were other messiahs not reported as raised?

Hi huckelberry,

I think you and I had this same discussion last time where I pointed to Acts as evidence that the Apostle Peter used the claim Jesus was raised from the dead as evidence for his being the Messiah. Here it is again -

Acts 2:

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.
...

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.

26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,

27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.

28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.
31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.
32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.
33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:33 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
As a believer I thought this quote from Lewis was profound -

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must take your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else he was a madman or something worse.” [Mere Christianity]

Only after getting into the work of both faithful and skeptical text critics of the New Testament did it occur to me it had a fatal flaw. We don't know what Jesus actually said about himself, only what others claim he did and those all have views as to who he was that are what gets reflected in the New Testament. It's a poorly thought out bit of logic once reflected on in the light of the limits of our knowledge of the historical Jesus.

Honorentheos , I have conflicting thoughts about this. Lewis is a smart fellow and I have felt myself surprised by the weakness of this argument which you point out. No doubt this proposed choice, madman or messiah, is not a lock on the subject. I think that Lewis was likely aware of the ambiguity you point out. It is clear that there is uncertainty about specific things Jesus said. At the same time it is pretty clear that he said and did somethings that got him in deep trouble with the authorities and led his followers to consider he could be messiah.
The temple cleansing could qualify as action or communication which fits Lewis proposed choice of madman or trustworthy teacher.

I think the conflict presents something worth reflection. I can also think it is possible that in human life these opposing categories could mix in a particular person.


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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:53 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
As a believer I thought this quote from Lewis was profound -

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must take your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else he was a madman or something worse.” [Mere Christianity]

Only after getting into the work of both faithful and skeptical text critics of the New Testament did it occur to me it had a fatal flaw. We don't know what Jesus actually said about himself, only what others claim he did and those all have views as to who he was that are what gets reflected in the New Testament. It's a poorly thought out bit of logic once reflected on in the light of the limits of our knowledge of the historical Jesus.

Honorentheos , I have conflicting thoughts about this. Lewis is a smart fellow and I have felt myself surprised by the weakness of this argument which you point out. No doubt this proposed choice, madman or messiah, is not a lock on the subject. I think that Lewis was likely aware of the ambiguity you point out. It is clear that there is uncertainty about specific things Jesus said. At the same time it is pretty clear that he said and did somethings that got him in deep trouble with the authorities and led his followers to consider he could be messiah.
The temple cleansing could qualify as action or communication which fits Lewis proposed choice of madman or trustworthy teacher.

I think the conflict presents something worth reflection. I can also think it is possible that in human life these opposing categories could mix in a particular person.

Setting Lewis' overly simple argument aside, I look at the claimed words and history of Jesus as I do any other record or claimed words of other wisdom teachers. I think I've said this before on the board, but I don't take lightly anything that has withstood the forces of time and cultural change that people seem to find valuable and therefore preserve and pass on to the next generation over centuries. If the teachings of and about Jesus as presented in the New Testament have contributed to making civilization possible, allowed various social groups to outcompete others with differing views, and more or less advance the course of civilization in some manner then whether or not they are historical, they do have something to offer us. For that reason the New Testament sits next to the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects of Confucius, the Tao, the Qur'an, the Talmud, a book of various Buddhist sutras, some odds and ends from various philosophers and biographies of historical figures on my book shelves for reading and consideration on various cycles of time. Ancient, proven wisdom matters and we ignore it at our peril, IMO.

But outside of that, I think any attempt to push any character in history to an extreme is a-historic and we should probably accept we can't know them as historical figures or admire them as heroes with our modern gaze without remaking them entirely into something other than who they were. I suspect by our modern sensibilities almost everyone who lived earlier than the late 19th century would be a barbarian in terms of what they would view as normal, acceptable violence, tribalism, and pragmatic necessities we would possibly view with horror. Was Jesus a zealot who, having gained local notoriety around the shores of Galilee, took his message of rebellion against Rome to Jerusalem and was turned over to Rome for political execution by the Jewish leadership there because having a fundamentalist tear up the temple and agitate for Israel to resist the authority of Rome with an eye to the imminent arrival of the Son of Man was asking for more trouble than they could allow? Possibly. But who knows.

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Last edited by honorentheos on Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Honorentheos, Your pointing out the speech in Acts is good support for your view that an expectation of resurrection existed. I was thinking of the place where Jesus is said to explain this to his disciples. That did not sound like a widespread belief. Your choice of reference is stronger.

If we are looking at a situation say forty years after his death people could think, he should have been ressurected the psalm would be encouragement. It leaves the question open of why people soon after his death generated the story.
Would the psalm convince people that Jesus was raised in some heavenly realm without any personal witness? I could imagine a possibility if people were quite convinced he was messiah despite is earthly failures.

I agree with your general observation that the scripture story should be questioned and not taken as a given. Well in a church setting of worship it is proper to use the story as is but that should not stop people from questioning.


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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:15 pm 
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It's an interesting question for a scholar of 2nd temple Judaism if Acts 2:31 speaks to a view widely held around that time (31 Seeing what was to come, he (David) spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. ) or if Peter was making a connection to something that caused others to see in the scriptures something they did not see before. I am not such a scholar. But Acts 2 reads to me as Peter making the case that Jesus having died and been resurrected supported the claim he was the messiah.

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:34 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
It's an interesting question for a scholar of 2nd temple Judaism if Acts 2:31 speaks to a view widely held around that time (31 Seeing what was to come, he (David) spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. ) or if Peter was making a connection to something that caused others to see in the scriptures something they did not see before. I am not such a scholar. But Acts 2 reads to me as Peter making the case that Jesus having died and been resurrected supported the claim he was the messiah.


I had done a little review of N T Wright who spends a good bit of time reviewing first century Jewish beliefs culture in his study. I gathered that beliefs about a Messiah were loose, variable. He did not see expectation of resurrection as holding a large role. That does not say there was nobody holding such a view.

I think the strongest skeptical view of the resurrection would take an expectation of resurrection based upon the psalm as starting point for believing that it took place in the heavens. Visions such as Stephens would be the fuel for the belief that it did actually happen. Enthusiasm such as at Pentacost could add to the visionary fulfilments of expectation. Thirty to fifty years later the stories could get more physically immediate as found in the gospels.


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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:21 pm 
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Exodus: The Mountain Of God

Egypt or Saudi Arabia?


https://youtu.be/YjrxHqNy5CQ


If you don't want to watch the entire 24 minute video, here are a few spots that are interesting.

At the 8:50 mark of the video
Exodus 15:27
27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

At the 12:10 mark of the video
Exodus 24:4
4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

At the 15:25 mark of the video
Exodus 17:6
6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.


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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:56 pm 
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But have you heard about Nahom, yet?

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:58 pm 
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I seem to remember when I was young and still in church a huge outcry of warning about people playing Dungeons & Dragons. It was evil, I tells ya! Evil!!! I never understood the big deal.

It makes complete sense now. It's a simple matter of competition. They don't like people role-playing a different character.

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:58 pm 
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Perfume on my Mind wrote:
I never understood the big deal.


https://youtu.be/ssG7_maFk2s


Exodus 17:6
6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.


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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:29 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Perfume on my Mind wrote:
I never understood the big deal.
https://youtu.be/ssG7_maFk2s

Exodus 17:6
6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Oh, so that's why D&D is bad. It's totally clear from this.

And I'm totally not being sarcastic.

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Bump

No interest?

Ceeboo wrote:
Exodus: The Mountain Of God

Egypt or Saudi Arabia?


https://youtu.be/YjrxHqNy5CQ


If you don't want to watch the entire 24 minute video, here are a few spots that are interesting.

At the 8:50 mark of the video
Exodus 15:27
27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

At the 12:10 mark of the video
Exodus 24:4
4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

At the 15:25 mark of the video
Exodus 17:6
6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.


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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:49 pm 
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Image

There are at least 7 different peaks in Utah all called Mollies Nipple usually tied to a local story of how <insert name of person who settled the area or explored it prior to settlement> named it after <insert type of relationship a man might have with a woman that includes physical intimacy> usual a girlfriend or wife they have been away from a little too long. It makes sense, maybe. But it also helps to know Mollie was a slang term for prostitute back when. But why mess up a good story about a rock formation. Which is all it is, right? Anyone who sees anything else other than a rock formation should seek help.

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:21 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Bump

No interest?

Ceeboo wrote:
Exodus: The Mountain Of God

Egypt or Saudi Arabia?


https://youtu.be/YjrxHqNy5CQ


If you don't want to watch the entire 24 minute video, here are a few spots that are interesting.

At the 8:50 mark of the video
Exodus 15:27
27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

At the 12:10 mark of the video
Exodus 24:4
4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

At the 15:25 mark of the video
Exodus 17:6
6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.


Interest.

First, I don't think you need to pick out points in a 24 minute (and change) video. If one is truly interested, they'll watch it. If not, well, they'll scribble all over the thread with off topic nonsense. I believe I see empirical evidence of that and I think it's a darn shame because I think that you are one of the most congenial guys in this place but if they get their jollies from smearing a thread who am I to deprive them of their hobby whatever that may be and for whatever purpose. That said...

I've only gone through this once. I took notes. ;-) On first viewing I have multiple questions and now have about 5 million windows open on my computer in an attempt to answer them. Okay, I'm lying. It's not 5 million.

Here is one question that I don't believe was answered in the video. Can you tell me what the date would be for the Exodus?

I need to know this to answer one specific question I have and I need to match dates or a date range to something else. Thanks!

I want to make multiple posts here with subtopics but I know Shades will merge them all because that's what he does to my posts when he doesn't recognize that I do that as a courtesy to those who wish to reply to one issue or point under a topic. So here goes...

First let me say that I don't doubt for a single second that the Exodus took place. I believe that the ancients took good care to preserve their oral history and while a few details may have gotten blurred or added to over the years, I take the orality of the tribes seriously and view them as precious evidence of the ancient cultures. Secondly, I don't require proof.

As a believer I want to explain how I approach a video like this (even one that is a brief 24 minutes long). I always take a skeptical approach which may sound weird on first take, but it's not. I want to know who the presenter is (not to worry I've got windows open on him), I want to know who he's working for (more windows), for what purpose, what funding is involved and where it's coming from. Why? The answer is easy, Ceebs. There are far too many unscrupulous people trying to bilk people (believers and non) out of their money. Think about the Shroud of Turin, the James Ossuary, I believe it was, and other such discoveries that turn out to be less than proof of various Biblical accounts though they might be evidence of ancient cultures or in some cases, outright forgeries.

Remember I don't require proof. I never have.

But I want to know first of all who is presenting and what their purpose is. For all I know, this guy is in cahoots with the Saudi Gov't and trying to make a buck off believers. For example, how do I know that what I am seeing is an excavation site and not a construction site? How do I know if the Saudis are building up something to take advantage of me and bilk me out of my billions? Okay, I am lying again. I don't have billions but you get the idea. Or how do I know they aren't going to use the alleged site as political leverage? Or how do I know this isn't Trump planning his exit strategy at a new Trump Resort in the Saudi desert?

So...I would first consider the source/motive and investigate as best as I can knowing that all I can find is what sources are willing to show me. Get it?

Lastly, I don't believe that God wants me spending tons of time chasing down Mt. Sinai any more than he wants me to chase down evidence for Noah's Ark or the Flood. It's fascinating to explore these things but you'll probably never get a "wow" out of me when it comes to proof/archaeological evidence because I'm not built that way and I don't believe that's how God wants me to live in this world.

But I'll chase it for a while if you would like to so long as I can budget my time well. And only because I think you're one of the most congenial, positive, and good-hearted posters in this community and I am willing to give this the time of day out of sheer respect for you and it doesn't hurt that I like you.

Oh and by the way...…….she seems to have survived and she's back.

;-)

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:34 am 
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Putting the host/foundation on the back burner here for now. And I want to say that you didn't say what types of reactions or discussions you hoped might come from your original post, so I'm left to go my own way with it. As I stated previously, I take a skeptical approach. Critical thinking is important to that process. So here comes a beginning reaction to the video.

At 2:36 in the video, the host pinpoints the area as Jabal al Lawz.

At 3:13 he quotes the OT that God descended upon Mt. Sinai mountain as a fire. Talks about the "blackened peaks" and later claims that the rocks are only black from the outside (How does he know that? Has he been inside of the mountain?) and offers that researchers disagree as to whether the black rocks are evidence of the OT claim or if it's volcanic rock.

Okay, first of all, the last claim (that researchers disagree as to whether the black rocks is evidence of God descending the mountain as fire or etc. falls flat on it's face. No researcher is or can prove that God descending Mt. Sinai and blackened the rocks with fire. I know that sounds like I'm debunking the OT claim but I am not. I am debunking the presenter's claim because it seems outrageous to me. If a researcher actually DID make the claim that the rocks were blackened by God, what evidence would s/he have for that? The OT account and the fact that the rocks are black? That s/he's never seen black rock like that so it must be from God? That's not evidence for the claim.

There CAN'T be evidence for the claim because there's nothing to compare it to. And if you can't reproduce the effect based on the evidence, the science comes down like a house of cards in a tornado. If a researcher made such a claim another researcher would come right behind him/her with yet another claim of an undiscovered type of rock that would be followed by decades of tests and comparisons. So where does that leave the believer or non? Chasing down rock tests for the next several decades? Again, as a believer myself I don't think that's how my God wishes me to spend my life so I reject it at face value based on what I've stated.

Continuing...

Ceebs that entire area surrounding Jabal al Lawz or Midian (Midyan) is a geothermal system.

You can see here an abstract about Midyan granite in the area as well as maps.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6808000905

There are plenty more maps and descriptions to be found online. They were some of the windows I had open earlier.

So...not only do I see the host's claim about the researchers as a time draining waste that can never be proven, just on the surface I see that a reasonable answer to the blackened rock is that it's the result of volcanic/tectonic activity in the region and I don't see a need to prove it to begin with.

There are numerous relics from and excavations in the Holy Lands. Most of us are at least familiar with some of those. We have, for example, evidence of Pilate. (Pilate stones/inscriptions and I think...coins? I forget now.) How does evidence of Pilate testify to the crucifixion and resurrection?

It doesn't. The Gospels testify to it.

With regard to proving the Bible (which you made no claim to in your original post on the video), I see it as a waste of time and contrary to my faith in Christ. I can think of one figure in the New Testament for example, who required tangible proof of the resurrected Jesus because he doubted (look at the name of the foundation that this guy is sponsored by--if that's not Christian BAIT I don't know what is) and that was Thomas. In response, Christ Jesus stretched out his hands and let Thomas touch his wounds.

I could bring up numerous portions of scripture that have to do with faith and I don't think that any of them stipulate that "Faith is based on tangible empirical evidence". The Great Commission isn't followed by Go ye into all the world looking for evidence to show your fellow human beings so they believe Jesus.

As I have stated many times you either believe Jesus or you don't. You either believe that he stretched out his hands on the cross or you don't. And it's not up to me to go looking for solid proof other than what is revealed to me in scripture and in my own life, sharing with others who seem to be open to it.

So...I will still hang with you on this video topic, but a video like this doesn't wow me. It makes me want to pick it apart for the possible idolatry it tempts me to buy into (and good folks to spend their money donating to--the presenter had a GoFundMe for part of this video presentation--yet another window and no, I didn't waste time digging up issues about him. He's also a FOX News guy--national security analyst.) and spend my time researching various subtopics which is not how I live out my faith--which I admittedly stink at some days. :-)

I'm not even 5 minutes in and poking holes for the second time...just mentioning.

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:21 am 
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Hey Jersey Girl
Jersey Girl wrote:
Here is one question that I don't believe was answered in the video. Can you tell me what the date would be for the Exodus?

No, I can't tell you (Like almost everything else in the bible, the date of the exodus is contested/debated/denied/mocked) But I can offer my opinion on the date. My opinion is that the exodus happened around 1446bc. Here is how one can get to this date from the bible:

First Kings 6:1
Solomon Builds the Temple
1 In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.


480 years prior to laying the foundation of temple - King Solomon undertook this event in the 4th year of his reign - so around 966bc - so this puts the exodus around 1446bc.

Quote:
So...I would first consider the source/motive and investigate as best as I can knowing that all I can find is what sources are willing to show me. Get it?

Yes, I do.
I used that particular video because it was relatively short (There are many other sources/books that lend some fairly compelling evidence for Saudi Arabia as well - IMO)

Quote:
It's fascinating to explore these things but you'll probably never get a "wow" out of me when it comes to proof/archaeological evidence because I'm not built that way and I don't believe that's how God wants me to live in this world.

Understood.

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Oh and by the way...…….she seems to have survived and she's back.

;-)

That is FANTASTIC! :)


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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:44 am 
God

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Hey again Jersey Girl
Jersey Girl wrote:
And I want to say that you didn't say what types of reactions or discussions you hoped might come from your original post

I wasn't hoping for any particular reactions or discussions - I was adding another biblical topic to the "bible study" thread because the thread seems to have lost it's traction.

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I'm not even 5 minutes in and poking holes for the second time...just mentioning.

No problem - I appreciate your participation.


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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:50 am 
God

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Hey honor
honorentheos wrote:

There are at least 7 different peaks in Utah all called Mollies Nipple

Imagine how difficult it would be to buy a bra for Mollie!


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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:56 pm 
God
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Ceeboo wrote:
Hey honor
honorentheos wrote:

There are at least 7 different peaks in Utah all called Mollies Nipple

Imagine how difficult it would be to buy a bra for Mollie!


You guys.

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:08 pm 
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I just messed up and lost my response to the dating of the Exodus. Call me block headed. :lol:

Regrouping...

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 Post subject: Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:29 pm 
God
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Ceeboo wrote:
Hey Jersey Girl
Jersey Girl wrote:
Here is one question that I don't believe was answered in the video. Can you tell me what the date would be for the Exodus?

No, I can't tell you (Like almost everything else in the bible, the date of the exodus is contested/debated/denied/mocked) But I can offer my opinion on the date. My opinion is that the exodus happened around 1446bc. Here is how one can get to this date from the bible:

First Kings 6:1
Solomon Builds the Temple
1 In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.


480 years prior to laying the foundation of temple - King Solomon undertook this event in the 4th year of his reign - so around 966bc - so this puts the exodus around 1446bc.


Okay good! That wasn't a trick question. I wouldn't do that to you anyway. I just needed an approximate date to match it to something else. Hopping around the video now with my notes. I'll tell you why I needed an approx. date.

At 8:49 our host, Mr. Mauro, takes us to a new area and shares that Exodus 15:27 describes a place with 12 wells and 70 palms. So I am looking at the 12 wells in the video and thinking that for all I know those are 12 newly drilled wells or they're dummied up wells for the camera. I have no way of knowing which it might be because I don't know if the wells are being used or if they're dry. There's nothing there to make any sort of case there for me.

So geek girl over here investigated the palm trees (the windows I had open last night) and whether or not that particular stand of palm trees could have any basis in the Biblical account. According to one my sources, there is archaeological evidence that date desert palms were being cultivated going back to 5530-5532 bc. Also, the way that they grow and replenish would allow that the contemporary stand (grove?) of desert date palms in the video could be descendants of the ancient palms in the Exodus account.

So, that part is plausible.

But...even though it's plausible it still doesn't provide evidence that Sinai is in Saudi Arabia nor does it provide evidence of the Exodus.

So here we are again chasing down empirical evidence for the location (which is plausible) but we can never find empirical evidence for the Biblical account in terms or proving that God was present or interactive with Israel.

This is one of the reasons that I don't spend much time looking into something like this. But I do have more notes to post about here...


Quote:
Quote:
Oh and by the way...…….she seems to have survived and she's back.

;-)

That is FANTASTIC! :)


I am well and truly good! Okay I am well...not sure about the good part.

:mrgreen:

Will post more later. I am making up for so much lost time over here. House is a disaster from one end to the other. I need to break out a bulldozer.

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