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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:11 pm 
God

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Are the aunt, uncle, and parent siblings? Or did the parent marry a sibling of the aunt-uncle sibs?


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:34 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Are the aunt, uncle, and parent siblings? Or did the parent marry a sibling of the aunt-uncle sibs?


Hi Lem! Yes, the aunt, uncle and parent of the person are all siblings. They presumably share a mother in common. I'm not sure about their father.

The parent of the person did not marry a sibling.

If you look at the values I extracted from charts that state cM ranges, even a half sibling would not show as a second cousin. I don't know how to explain these results and it's important to all concerned that they get answers.

Looking in on this from the outside, can you tell what I am missing?

I'll be calling Ancestry customer support this afternoon. I'm hoping that I don't need an account number to do so. I do have two people sending written inquiry to Ancestry as a back up plan.

My knowledge of DNA tests is limited to knowing what test to use for what purpose. I think...that if the uncle or father were to do a Y chromosome DNA test, and the aunt following that, it would show whether or not the break is due to having different fathers and then case closed.

That still doesn't explain why Ancestry shows the aunt as a second cousin.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:37 pm 
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According to the charts that I linked to and referenced, the aunt's 609 cM's put her closer in relation to the person. It doesn't push her down the chain to second cousin.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:42 pm 
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Brother (father of the person)
l
l
l
Brother (uncle) close relative
l
l
l
Sister (aunt) second cousin

:question:

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:42 pm 
God

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Oh look, a calculator. :rolleyes:

https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4/611

When I enter 609, second cousin shows a probability of 1.53%.

So what exactly is up with Ancestry?

Somebody could step on my head right now and I'd be okay with it.

Meaning it could happen, but relatively unlikely.

So you have an unusual result, but not an impossible one.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:49 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Meaning it could happen, but relatively unlikely.

So you have an unusual result, but not an impossible one.


Yes, I understand that. Can you think of any reason that the test would produce that unusual result, Lemmie?

Why wouldn't it at least place her as first cousin?

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
Meaning it could happen, but relatively unlikely.

So you have an unusual result, but not an impossible one.


Yes, I understand that. Can you think of any reason that the test would produce that unusual result, Lemmie?

Why wouldn't it at least place her as first cousin?


Because it didn't. As far as I know, these tests are based on data collected and are estimations. As far as reasons, read below:
Quote:
When interpreting autosomal DNA statistics, one must be careful to distinguish between the distribution of shared DNA for given relationships and the distribution of relationships for given amounts of shared DNA.

For example, known second cousins on average share 212.5 centiMorgans (cMs), but in extreme cases can actually share as little as 47 cMs or as much as 760 cMs.

https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_statistics


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Thanks, Lemmie. I hadn't seen that statement. I don't fully understand the role of algorithms that produce the results.

Here are my thoughts at the moment...

1. They may share a common mother only.
2. They may share a common father only.

The autosomal tests do not make that distinction unless the segment piece (which I'm trying to get) demonstrates that. I suppose the only possible way to solve the problem would be to either do X or Y chromosome tests to sort out which parent they actually share.

I don't know if I'm making logical sense here.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:16 pm 
God

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Ok you're not going to like this, but if the half-aunt's other parent was your friend's parent's cousin from a sibling of their grandparent, then the half-aunt and your friend would be second cousins.

I prefer to think it is the vagaries of statistical analysis that gave you that result, however.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:25 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Ok you're not going to like this, but if the half-aunt's other parent was your friend's parent's cousin from a sibling of their grandparent, then the half-aunt and your friend would be second cousins.

I prefer to think it is the vagaries of statistical analysis that gave you that result, however.


Let me step away and think about your above. I'm willing to consider any explanation whether I like it or not. Truth matters to those involved.

I'm at least somewhat convinced that the test results are imprecise and based on loose interpretations but I don't know how to prove it. At the same time I admit that I don't fully understand how the tests work.

I'll check back here later. I appreciate your time and responses, Lemmie.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:52 pm 
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Back on the horse after a long day. Adding even more detail that I received earlier. Color coding to make this more readable.

Jersey Girl wrote:
Adding more detail to the OP:

A person got her DNA results back. (No, it's not me).

Her aunt and uncle are listed as:

Aunt (Second cousin) 609 cM shared

Uncle (Close relative) 1,640 cM shared

Aunt and Uncle are siblings.

What explains this?


When the details portion of the results are opened up, here is what it shows:

Aunt (Second cousin) 609 cM shared
Shared across 26 DNA segments
Confidence: Extremely High
Possible range: first - second cousins


Uncle (Close relative) 1,640 cM shared
Shared across 62 DNA segments
Confidence: Extremely High
Possible range: close relative- first cousin


Which seems to muddy the waters just a bit in that, both the aunt and uncle could fit as first cousin though the uncle leans heavy towards close relative where the aunt seems to lean heavy in the direction of second cousin which makes little to no sense to me unless it represents distance in terms of how much DNA is shared between them.

Making it more likely that there is one shared parent between them and one that is not shared.

Then...there is this information supplied. I extracted only the ranges/relationships applicable to this case.

1450-2050 aunt/uncle
680-1150 first cousin
200-620 second cousin


It says absolutely nothing about half aunt or half uncle relationships so the results are not stated with much differentiation regarding relationships in the same way that the charts are that I posted previously.

This still leaves open the question about the relationship between the aunt/uncle. Do they share both parents in common? Do they share only a mother? Share only a father?

And how does one discover this without doing either or both the Y and X chromosome testing?

Have not received a written response from Ancestry. Didn't get through on the phone call but only because I wasn't wiling to wait in the queue for 15 minutes at the time.

These tests, although they can be fun and interesting, can also be quite disruptive which is why I posted the inquiry here as I was trying to get multiple responses from a variety of sources for these folks.

I'll continue to compare responses until I can come up with a comment or two for those involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:58 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Adding more detail to the OP:

A person got her DNA results back. (No, it's not me).

Her aunt and uncle are listed as:

Aunt (Second cousin) 609 cM shared

Uncle (Close relative) 1,640 cM shared

Aunt and Uncle are siblings.

What explains this?

They’re from Kentucky?

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:15 am 
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If I had to guess at an explanation, it is that the aunt was not the uncle's sister but his niece or cousin. Meaning, she was born to someone who was likely too young to marry in a family where abortion wasn't an option. And to avoid scandal her grandparents raised her as if they were her parents, and she was told her likely parent was a sibling. It rules out the uncle having fathered her, but most likely if she has a sibling who was in their teens when she was born they would be a good candidate for being her parent. Or maybe a cousin in another family that wasn't in a position to take her in and raise her. But something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:26 am 
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I'm sticking with Sancho...

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... -zTUsq_mPM:

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:19 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
If I had to guess at an explanation, it is that the aunt was not the uncle's sister but his niece or cousin. Meaning, she was born to someone who was likely too young to marry in a family where abortion wasn't an option. And to avoid scandal her grandparents raised her as if they were her parents, and she was told her likely parent was a sibling. It rules out the uncle having fathered her, but most likely if she has a sibling who was in their teens when she was born they would be a good candidate for being her parent. Or maybe a cousin in another family that wasn't in a position to take her in and raise her. But something like that.

:lol: that was my thought also, but abortion not being an option certainly adds some empathetic context.
lemmie wrote:
Ok you're not going to like this, but if the half-aunt's other parent was your friend's parent's cousin from a sibling of their grandparent, then the half-aunt and your friend would be second cousins.

I prefer to think it is the vagaries of statistical analysis that gave you that result, however.


I still think it is just a statistical anomaly. But if not, Jersey Girl, are you sure your friend will want you to get to the bottom of this?


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:20 pm 
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Hot off a call with Ancestry...the woman was very nice!

So...yes, it looks like a half-sibling relationship. There's no way to tell from these results which bio parent they share--we can all see that on the results.

The next step is having the aunt/uncle determine where they show up in each other's results. If a comparison is possible, the range will likely show differing numbers in terms of centiMorgans than the above results show.

The range will be something on the order of:

2000's for both: Full sibling
1300's for both: Close - first cousin. (Ancestryspeak for half sibling)

She said that the Y and X chromosome tests wouldn't be useful. I'll investigate that later as I've actually got a life here. ;-)

I do love a good mystery but this one is starting to wear on me!

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:25 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
If I had to guess at an explanation, it is that the aunt was not the uncle's sister but his niece or cousin. Meaning, she was born to someone who was likely too young to marry in a family where abortion wasn't an option. And to avoid scandal her grandparents raised her as if they were her parents, and she was told her likely parent was a sibling. It rules out the uncle having fathered her, but most likely if she has a sibling who was in their teens when she was born they would be a good candidate for being her parent. Or maybe a cousin in another family that wasn't in a position to take her in and raise her. But something like that.


honor that sounds reasonable however, the mother of the aunt/uncle was an only child. I do have a way of checking if the mother actually gave birth to the aunt in question.

You are exactly right to bring up what constituted scandals back in the day. As the Ancestry lady admitted, these tests can result in joy and also heart break. We see that most pointedly in the stories about adoptees locating their bio parents. Some bio's welcome the reunion, others wanted their past to remain in the past which begs they question...then, why did they do their Ancestry DNA kit to begin with? They rolled the dice in that regard, I think they should have done so with the expectation that their results could lead their bio child to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:34 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:

I still think it is just a statistical anomaly. But if not, Jersey Girl, are you sure your friend will want you to get to the bottom of this?


Yes, she does want to get to the bottom of this. It will help to at least partially settle a family dispute.

If it turns out to be a case of I am my own grandpa or whatever, no matter. They want it resolved as best they can.

I was invited into the situation because some of them believe I do well as mediator and can handle these types of sensitive issues without doing harm to the hearts involved. Well, we'll just have to see about that!

I can't move forward until I have my feet on at least somewhat solid ground.

And good luck with that girls and boys!

"It's complicated" ~ Harry Potter, DH2

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Markk wrote:


I would appreciate it very much if you would learn how to handle an adult conversation regarding serious content without lowering yourself to adolescent level.

Had you yourself posted an inquiry such as this, I would have met you with sensitivity to the issues raised here; understanding that they involve real people with real lives and real relationships that are being disrupted by the results in question.

Which is why they asked for outside help from me and I posed my questions to use this board as part of my resources with which to get them an explanation for what they see in their results and what the implications are to their family relationships and how they might set out to heal them.

In other words, stop making joke posts. Get in the conversation and act like an adult or go to the children's table somewhere else.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:10 pm 
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Went back into my course notes.

Y DNA is only done by males to produce male lineage

X DNA is only done by females to produce female lineage

X DNA = mtDNA =Mitochondrial DNA testing

Ow, my brain hurts!

ETA: Scratch that for the time being. There's more.

Brain still hurts. :eek:

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestry DNA results
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:47 pm 
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Bham!! :mrgreen:

So I did some wading through my course notes which led me to search online about "sibling DNA testing". There are apparently 3 types of tests, these are the types of tests that are used by... immigration services!

Which led me to find this one website. I am sure there are more.

Quote:
Full Siblings vs. Unrelated. In these sibling tests, the DNA of two individuals is compared to determine the likelihood that they have the same biological mother and father, versus being completely unrelated. This type of sibling test is most frequently requested in U.S. immigration cases, in which one individual is a U.S. citizen sponsoring an alleged sibling who is applying for an immigrant visa.

Full Siblings vs. Half Siblings. In these sibling tests, the DNA of two individuals with the same biological mother is compared to determine the likelihood that they have the same biological father. For these tests, we recommend that samples from the biological mother also be tested. This enables us to determine exactly which genes the two children inherited from their biological father and thereby greatly increases the conclusiveness of the test.

Half Siblings vs. Unrelated.
In these sibling tests, the DNA of two individuals with different biological mothers is compared to determine the likelihood that they have the same biological father. For these tests, we recommend that samples from one—and preferably both—biological mothers be tested if possible. This enables us to determine exactly which genes the two children inherited from their biological father(s) and thereby greatly increases the conclusiveness of the test.


https://www.lbgenetics.com/dna-sibling-tests/

$395 a pop! I know exactly where to go with this dispute now and how to approach it.

Wow!

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