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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:10 am 
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moksha wrote:
The public restroom facilities for the homeless in Salt Lake City have been hiring minimum wage workers to patrol these few facilities to make sure no more than one person is using the facility in order to decrease drug usage and two-person sex.

I would not advise having minimum wage workers, or anyone other than trained/armed security, policing anything on the streets of LA, especially after dark. Respectively...you simply do not understand the situation. Picking up trash during the day okay, but that is about it. This may help you understand... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJP6K6L2C2g

Our last governor emptied the county jails to make room for prisoners emptied out of the state prison system. Many just walk the few blocks across the freeway to skid-row to live and hustle.

I posted this after I took it a few years ago, but in case you missed it. It is just one street out of who know how many in the 50 plus block area of skid row.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE46a0zTui8

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:52 am 
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Chap wrote:
Markk wrote:
You seem to believe these people pooping on the streets are like you...they are not Chap.

No, of course I don't. I know what poverty, social marginalisation and drugs can do in the long term by way of destroying people.

But there they are. It's your city (apparently) and you are a voting citizen, and they live on its streets. What do you want your city to do about it? And are you prepared to pay the cost of remedying a situation created by years of neglect of the city and the people who live on its streets? Cleaning up all that human wreckage won't come cheap, once you have let it go that far.

Or do you just enjoy complaining about it?

It is not my city, I just work there, I live in another county. I am currently doing a project very near Union Station, and skid row is spreading over the 101 freeway into this area.

You did not tell me what city you are talking about...why?

In regards to chronic homelessness, my answer is we, the people, have got to want to change things, until we want to it won't happen. And I am not sure what the right answer is, but I am pretty sure I know what is the wrong answer based on the simple fact is it is not working, and that is pandering to the problem. Putting political band aids on the issue is not working.

The problem is not enough restrooms, the problem is these folks that are pooping in the streets, in most cases are fried, addicted, and sick...and all the tents, restrooms and free food, along with free incentives for work and housing will go ignored.

I understand at this point we need to spend money. But, the fact is though we do spend money, but we spend it foolishly. One of the things we need to do is open up places that RR closed down under his administration. And get those that are beyond ever helping themselves off the streets.

Can we agree that is a good place to start? If you disagree, what do we do with the thousands of people that are beyond ever helping themselves that live on the streets with no family support system?

Most of us here that are older, have had to take care of family member, or friend, that for what ever reason could/can't not take care of themselves...try to imagine if they were in a tent on the sidewalk in a city alone with little or no money, living with criminals and addicts ready to take advantage of them.

Getting these folks off the streets and getting them help would be my first priority, and unfortunately it may mean a institution for most for the rest of their lives.

Then I would deal with addiction and criminals that are chronically homeless. Then I believe this would free up the system to put good monies towards helping the ones that can get back into society.

Look at the video I pasted in my last thread at about a 1:30 minutes into it, if you look carefully you will see a public restroom in front of a homeless refuge park...if you had one every fifty feet it would not change a thing, in regards to the real issue.

Again, what city are you talking about, I would like to see what restrooms they actually use and how they implement the program.

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:04 am 
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Markk, your presentation of the seriousness of the problem is convincing. What is the solution? or how can it be improved. (other than production of soylant green ) I think for general civic responsibility Chaps suggestion makes a lot of sense. I see your point as saying more is needed in the areas you describe due to the size of the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:18 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
Markk, your presentation of the seriousness of the problem is convincing. What is the solution? or how can it be improved. (other than production of soylant green ) I think for general civic responsibility Chaps suggestion makes a lot of sense. I see your point as saying more is needed in the areas you describe due to the size of the problem.

Chap's idea of toilets is has been tried in LA, it did not work. They have toilets.

Maybe we were writing at the same time, but read my last post to Chap. I would love to hear other solutions. There is no definitive solution at this point other than first really wanting to slove this issue, which in the past moth or so is starting to get nation wide publicity of something that I have been trying to tell folks about for years. And mark by words it will come to your city sooner or later if nothing is done, and we don't act soon.

I had a very interesting conversation with a law enforcement officer yesterday who works in one of the largest county jails in the US. After I digest what I was told it will make a interesting thread, and ties into this conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Markk wrote:
I understand at this point we need to spend money. But, the fact is though we do spend money, but we spend it foolishly. One of the things we need to do is open up places that RR closed down under his administration. And get those that are beyond ever helping themselves off the streets.

There’s a little bit about that here:

http://www.sfweekly.com/news/the-great- ... permanent/

Markk, do you interpret that Reagan’s goal was realistic but simply implemented poorly? Did his plan seem genuine, or merely convenient to a particular ideology? Why didn’t it work?

From the article:

Reagan's fix did not involve government. If only “every church and synagogue would take in 10 welfare families” each, the president said, the problem could be weathered until it passed.

Was that a reasonable or workable demand?


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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:40 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
There’s a little bit about that here:

http://www.sfweekly.com/news/the-great- ... permanent/

Markk, do you interpret that Reagan’s goal was realistic but simply implemented poorly? Did his plan seem genuine, or merely convenient to a particular ideology? Why didn’t it work?

From the article:

Reagan's fix did not involve government. If only “every church and synagogue would take in 10 welfare families” each, the president said, the problem could be weathered until it passed.

Was that a reasonable or workable demand?

That was a long time ago. Times have changed and his policies are not the only policies that contribute to today’s mess, far from it.

Churches do a lot, many, if not most street ministries are Christian based. Many large churches take on far more than 10 families.

I think churches can do much better and more, and I believe we as people can do more, I know I can. But...chronic homelessness is beyond that. I believe Dr. Steuss would understand this being he also worked/works with folks in the streets. Sad as it is, some folks can’t really be helped beyond being institutionalized, and there are so many more of these folks than there was in Reagan’s days.

What’s your “plan.”

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:49 pm 
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Markk wrote:
What’s your “plan.”

I don’t have any sort of plan that I could speak to, off the cuff. Seems like most ideas discussed these days are attempting to address the symptoms of several social phenomenon as opposed to addressing root causes. That’s understandable given the nature of some of those root causes, such as the cost of housing. Any comprehensive plan would need to include that, as an example - but our economic system isn’t ready for that.


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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:28 am 
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In regards to chronic homelessness, mental health, chronic addiction, which is a real issue and one of which I have been addressing, and which RR opened the door to the streets, the cost of housing has nothing to do with being a root cause. These folks can't work, or won't work. They can't manage a budget or take care of business. They can't manage their health and life and take the med's that keep them, and others safe.

They need to be institutionalized in one way or the other, period.

As an example of part of what is going on. In my area we have a state hospital for the mentally ill (MI) folks (Patten State Hospital). By law, if a patient commits a crime in the hospital, such as an assault on another patient of staff they are arrested and taken to the county jails for trial. The hospital is over crowed, so they move many to the jails, where otherwise they should just stay there. So almost any offense is reported as a crime.

So at the Jail...there is a ward where 100's of individuals, who are MI await trial. They are people who eat their poop and wipe it on the walls, stick things in their orifices front and back, tearing off their skin and cutting their self's, and other unimaginable things. There are lesser MI, on med's that commit street crimes, that are chronically homeless, that they also have to manage. (I will start a thread on this part of it when I get a chance).

Deputies have to manage this, try to make sure they take their medication, and do the best they can.

These are the kinds of people, most to a lesser degree, that are on the streets in which I am talking about, not to mention that becasue of the resources taken to deal with this, bad guys are released to the street because there is no other choice.

So to point...affordable housing has nothing to do with a major part of homelessness in these major cities. These people when on managed med's are let out on the streets, they stop taking med's, then the cycle starts all over.

My source for this is a officer that helps manage the problem at one of the largest county jails in Ca., and first hand. As I probe and ask questions like "can we do this and that", his answer is basically "no, no, and no, their brains are gone." Keeping them locked up, and on forced med's is the only way to manage the issue, but that the jails are not the place for that, and the patients suffer in that deputies can only do so much, they are not trained medical professionals. They mostly baby sit, transfer them to and from court, and to and from the hospitals when they hurt themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:23 am 
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Markk wrote:
... These are the kinds of people, most to a lesser degree, that are on the streets in which I am talking about, not to mention that becasue of the resources taken to deal with this, bad guys are release to the street becasue there is no other choice.

So to point...affordable housing has nothing to do with a major part of homelessness in these major cities. These people when on managed meds are let out on the streets, they stop taking med's, then the cycle starts all over.

You and I agree on this more than you may suspect. Note that I’m not saying the cost of housing is a major factor - just that it is a rising issue that is difficult to address due to how there are few viable solutions to this that play well with how the markets (construction, zoning, financing, incentives) function.

Here in Salt Lake City, it’s just one more thing that adds to the problem. I’d suspect that if it has been identified as a factor in Salt Lake City, then CA would also see some effect, given the cost of housing out there.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... ction.html

There are certainly other, stronger factors within the problem that render affordable (or even free) housing options an ineffective solution for many folks. You’ve already identified several of those. I see plenty of homeless folks each day who appear to need to be institutionalized. I don’t know of any magic solutions that are going to make those folks functional again, to an extent where they could remain gainfully employed and be able to retain a stable housing situation.

But we’re also now seeing how non-addicts or otherwise functional individuals or families are susceptible to becoming homeless, and how difficult it becomes to escape that situation once they fall into it. This is unfortunate given how preventable that should or could be.


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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Affordable housing is a factor for sure...but for a different kind of homelessness.

I could be way off here, but these are the types of homeless folks I see, and have worked with in the past on the streets.

1) Those that are fried, gone, and have no chance of ever being part of society without managed help for the rest of their lives. They need medial assistance and always will.

2) Those that are MI, or handicapped, that for what ever reason can't manage their lives. They do not have a family, church, or other outside support system 100% of the time, and will need close goverment assistance always. In other words, if they had enough to get by on, and rent a section 8 home, they would spend their monies foolishly and not be able to manage a simple budget. There is no vision of future for these folks, they live in the now only. These folks are also preyed on by others, who rip them off.

3) The lazy, ignorant, and uneducated who are stuck in the welfare system and entitlement world we (our government ) allows. Prison is part of the family structure and life for many of these. Their father, mother, boyfriend may be in prison, or simply un-hireable...like tattoos on their face. You often hear..."my old man is locked up!" These folks also live in the now, day to day.

If given the proper environment and training, many could get out of the cycle. Drugs and alcohol play a role here. Instead of saving money for rent and basic bills like food, clothing, utilities, and transportation...they buy tobacco, alcohol, Cheetos, Pepsi, $200.00 shoes, and drugs. EBT cards at Jack in the Box, instead of staples at a grocery store. I can't tell you how many times I have fed a homeless person, who is living on the streets, who has on spotless pair of Nike's on, with a I-phone, clean white T-shirt or sports jersey, and a brand new hat. Yet they live in a car or in a tent.

4) Those that are just down on their luck, divorce, abuse, and other factors...but generally folks that can be very productive if they get back on their feet. Many of these live in their cars or go from family member to family member when they can.

Obviously there are many more reasons, and categories...but these were the ones that I "witnessed" the most, and how I mentally sort them out in my mind...especially 2 and 3.

Category 1 were all around, but we had to go to them, they seemed to be anti social. Where as if we set up our food trailer at a "homeless park"... 2 and 3 would come out in droves. We typically fed around 175-200 people in a hour before we were out of food.

Number 1 is the alarming one, and the growing one, just today I pulled into Union Station in downtown LA, and you can hear them across the street in a small park, like birds, talking to themselves...literally. It is very sad.

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:12 pm 
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Otis Redding's only Number One hit was Sitting On the Dock of the Bay. It was written about San Francisco:

I left my home in Georgia
Headed for the Frisco Bay
Now I have nothing to live for
Look like nothing's going to come my way

When things don't work out in this country, some people move west. The Okies didn't move to California during the Dust Bowl because they wanted to eat kale. And if things to work out by the time you hit the Pacific Ocean, you can't hitch-hike to Hawaii. I'm serious about this: If people could get to Hawaii easily, I would bet you would have large homeless camps in the jungle.

So places like Los Angeles and San Francisco become the catch points on the West Coast. Less so in Portland and Seattle, because of the rain and snow. I'm semi-retired, but for the past 4 years I've worked part time as a Tour Guide in San Francisco. The tours start at Fisherman's Wharf, and I would bet that a lot of the homeless at the Wharf are not from San Francisco.

In San Francisco, a typical one bedroom apartment is a little over $3500 a month. In some areas, the prices are North of Oh-My-Goodness. I've seen 3 bedroom apartments in a middle-class looking neighborhood in North Beach for $8,000 a month. We are talking about apartments that 70 years ago were probably inhabited by Italian Storekeepers and Fishermen. The cheapest apartments are in the Tenderloin district, a place with a lot of transient hotels that were built rapidly after the 1906 earthquake to house the homeless. Most of the rooms are 500 square feet, a bathroom sink in each room, a full bath at the end of each hallway, and a complete kitchen on the ground floor. Those rooms usually rent for $250-300 a week. If you are on General Assistance, good luck. There is section 8 housing and homeless shelters, but not enough. Glide Memorial Church in the heart of the Tenderloin District, serves 750,000 meals to the homeless every year.

Minimum wage is $15/hour. Seems like the biggest thing growing in the city is the gig economy. You go to a restaurant and half the people there are waiting to make a delivery for some Doordash dot com delivery service, hoping to eek out a few more dollars. Every other car sports an Uber or Lyft badge.

Keeping your head above water in a city with a cost of living like San Francisco can be extremely difficult for a lot of people who are not wealthy. Police, Fire and Teacher's salaries are not enough to house the people who work here. The middle class cannot afford to live here. It is a city with more dogs than children.

Unlike Gertrude Stein's comment about Oakland across the bay, the problem with San Francisco is that there is not enough there there. This city banned graveyards in 1905 because they were taking up too much room. 20% of the city is build on landfill (the landlocked neighborhood of North Beach used to have a beach). There is virtually no land available for housing.

San Francisco is a city for which there is too much demand and not enough supply. Geologically this is not a place where you would want to build New York scale buildings. How do you retain the character of a city that can provide homes for all the classes needed to make that city? It is not an easy problem.

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:45 pm 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
Otis Redding's only Number One hit was Sitting On the Dock of the Bay. It was written about San Francisco:

I left my home in Georgia
Headed for the Frisco Bay
Now I have nothing to live for
Look like nothing's going to come my way

When things don't work out in this country, some people move west. The Okies didn't move to California during the Dust Bowl because they wanted to eat kale. And if things to work out by the time you hit the Pacific Ocean, you can't hitch-hike to Hawaii. I'm serious about this: If people could get to Hawaii easily, I would bet you would have large homeless camps in the jungle.

So places like Los Angeles and San Francisco become the catch points on the West Coast. Less so in Portland and Seattle, because of the rain and snow. I'm semi-retired, but for the past 4 years I've worked part time as a Tour Guide in San Francisco. The tours start at Fisherman's Wharf, and I would bet that a lot of the homeless at the Wharf are not from San Francisco.

In San Francisco, a typical one bedroom apartment is a little over $3500 a month. In some areas, the prices are North of Oh-My-Goodness. I've seen 3 bedroom apartments in a middle-class looking neighborhood in North Beach for $8,000 a month. We are talking about apartments that 70 years ago were probably inhabited by Italian Storekeepers and Fishermen. The cheapest apartments are in the Tenderloin district, a place with a lot of transient hotels that were built rapidly after the 1906 earthquake to house the homeless. Most of the rooms are 500 square feet, a bathroom sink in each room, a full bath at the end of each hallway, and a complete kitchen on the ground floor. Those rooms usually rent for $250-300 a week. If you are on General Assistance, good luck. There is section 8 housing and homeless shelters, but not enough. Glide Memorial Church in the heart of the Tenderloin District, serves 750,000 meals to the homeless every year.

Minimum wage is $15/hour. Seems like the biggest thing growing in the city is the gig economy. You go to a restaurant and half the people there are waiting to make a delivery for some Doordash dot com delivery service, hoping to eek out a few more dollars. Every other car sports an Uber or Lyft badge.

Keeping your head above water in a city with a cost of living like San Francisco can be extremely difficult for a lot of people who are not wealthy. Police, Fire and Teacher's salaries are not enough to house the people who work here. The middle class cannot afford to live here. It is a city with more dogs than children.

Unlike Gertrude Stein's comment about Oakland across the bay, the problem with San Francisco is that there is not enough there there. This city banned graveyards in 1905 because they were taking up too much room. 20% of the city is build on landfill (the landlocked neighborhood of North Beach used to have a beach). There is virtually no land available for housing.

San Francisco is a city for which there is too much demand and not enough supply. Geologically this is not a place where you would want to build New York scale buildings. How do you retain the character of a city that can provide homes for all the classes needed to make that city? It is not an easy problem.


How many of those people on the streets, could afford a rent of 6 or 7 hundred a month, or even 5 hundred a month, and everything that goes with it? They might pay rent for a month or so at best. Lets be real if San Francisco is anything like LA and San Diego, and other areas down here...you know what I am talking about.

People who are truly homeless, and want help, can generally get it, sooner or later...and these people now how to find a restroom, or a bush.

There are far too many sick, chronically homeless people, and unfortanuntly always will be.

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:12 pm 
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I learned that my AAA membership was a great investment. Waiting for a tow truck in the middle of nowhere....

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:16 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
I learned that my AAA membership was a great investment. Waiting for a tow truck in the middle of nowhere....

That's ironic. I'm waiting for a pizza in the middle of nowhere.

:cool:

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:56 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
I learned that my AAA membership was a great investment. Waiting for a tow truck in the middle of nowhere....

That's ironic. I'm waiting for a pizza in the middle of nowhere.

:cool:

Wanna trade? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Wanna trade? :lol:

You'll be home before I'm eating! Guaranteed!

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:33 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wanna trade? :lol:

You'll be home before I'm eating! Guaranteed!

ETA 9:00. :sad:

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
ETA 9:00. :sad:

:surprised:

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:42 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
ETA 9:00. :sad:

:surprised:

Finally got in. Oh, did I mention this was the first day of family vacation? :eek:

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:32 am 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
:surprised:

Finally got in. Oh, did I mention this was the first day of family vacation? :eek:

What an ordeal! Happy Vacay!
;-)

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 Post subject: Re: What I learned today!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:53 pm 
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I started a new project in San Diego today. The project is downtown about a 1/2 mile from Petco Park. If you park on the street you have to pay via a parking meter.

I pulled in and started to put my credit card into the meter when a homeless guy yelled at me not to put put my credit card into the meter. I pulled it back thinking the meter might be bad of something, when he reached over with a quarter somehow attached to a plastic zip tie and he stuck in the coin slot over and over and gave me the maximum time of 2 hours....and then told me he works via "donations." I didn't really know what to do, so I gave him a few bucks and hoped I wouldn't get in trouble by a cop.

He said he would manage it also, and when I came back to feed the meter, it had 1hr and 45 minutes on it...so he kept his word.

I googled it and found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fXh9eR3Wfc

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Last edited by Markk on Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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