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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Quote:
Mikwut's summary is somewhat inaccurate, probably owing to the dubious sources he occasionally namechecks as following


What are these dubious sources? So I can up my game. (I don't remember naming any except Matt Taibbi.)

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:44 pm 
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mikwut wrote:
OK E. I read them both. How does either article dissuade me that the mainstream press, not just a corner of it, i.e. Fox News, peddles in constant dishonesty?


It doesn't because those articles aren't about that thing? They're about bothsideism, as I said.

Trying to create a false equivalence between the constant, raging, propagandistic dishonesty on Fox News and allied sources to what goes on in other popular media is so la-la land that I didn't think it was worth my time to try to engage it.


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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:46 pm 
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mikwut wrote:
Quote:
Mikwut's summary is somewhat inaccurate, probably owing to the dubious sources he occasionally namechecks as following


What are these dubious sources? So I can up my game. (I don't remember naming any except Matt Taibbi.)

mikwut

You've named several, and every time it was a head-slapping moment. Micheal Tracey, which you had to emphasize is a liberal, comes to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:56 pm 
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Quote:
Trying to create a false equivalence between the constant, raging, propagandistic dishonesty on Fox News and allied sources to what goes on in other popular media is so la-la land that I didn't think it was worth my time to try to engage it.


This is what I just don't get. I said nothing about equal. Why would it have to be equal? Would if Fox News spewed 98% vapid lies. And MSNBC and CNN spewed 50%. Your response would be to not respond because they only lie half the time? Whether it is WMDs, Afghanistan, Syria, the Russia Collusion, or the IG Report i posted about we get lies, and because Fox news lies we should wave a hand?

I gave a straight up example of the mainstream media lying to us for several years about the dossier. You decided to not make a response and rather rambled on why it wasn't covered more deeply. But my example of outright dishonesty wasn't responded to, it stands to which you made no response.

Were any of Tracey's twitter's inaccurate? My source was the IG report itself.

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:39 pm 
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Fact: Trump gets busted for admitting to being a sexual predator who sexually assaults women on audio tape.

In a normal universe this would be the end of anyone's political career. But not in this case. Why? Because you have FOX news reinforcing to millions of viewers the same kind of logic mikwut and exiled are engaging in. The defense goes like this, and I've heard it a thousand times:

Quote:
Trumper: "President Trump is imperfect. Is Biden perfect? Remember that time Joe Biden made a woman upset for kissing her on her head?"

Me: "Yes, Trump grabbing women by the pussy and insisting he has the right to do so because of his wealth and celebrity is the same thing as Biden kissing a woman on the back of the head!"

Trumper: "The fact that you're talking about Trump and not Biden proves you're a biased hypocrite. Trump should never have to suffer these double-standards in the media and the fact that you're persecuting him so makes me want to support him even more."


Mikwut and exiled are not defending Trump for his sexual crimes against women, but their dizzying attempts to equate FOX with CNN is basically the same kind of mental gymnastics. First thing they do is reduce the actual offense to something more generalized and innocuous. That way they can say "everyone does it." But no, this was never about media outlets simply "making mistakes." The mistakes by FOX and CNN are clearly different in terms of severity as well as their willingness to make amends when the error has been called out.

So FOX news being a literal propaganda arm for the Republican party and effectively state media that is sanctioned by the Executive branch of the United State government, is to their minds, the exact same thing as CNN making mistakes.

A couple of guys getting fired from CNN some years ago for prematurely running with a story based on a source that yet to be corroborated, apparently is the exact same thing as FOX News ordering their entire daily lineup to refer to Obamacare back in 2008 as "Government run healthcare" based on a memo from Frank Lutz. Donna Brazil (who now works at FOX!) sharing with Hillary Clinton a debate question is the exact same thing as FOX News posting deceptive graphics on a regular basis that can only be reasonably explained as an intentional attempt to deceive the public. "Same thing," because at the end of the day, no one is perfect. You cannot even begin to have intelligent conversations with these kinds of thought processes.

This is the same reason why millions of Christians are able to justify their support for someone who is basically the anti-Christ. They like to believe he's saving babies, but the fact is there hasn't been a single abortion avoided because of any judge Trump has appointed. Trump cares nothing about children obviously (putting them in cages and tearing them from their mothers), but he sold his soul to the Evangelical interest groups. They basically own him, and in exchange for their idiotic religious nuts he keeps putting on the bench, they gave him the Presidency.


Last edited by Icarus on Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:40 pm 
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mikwut wrote:

I gave a straight up example of the mainstream media lying to us for several years about the dossier.


That's not really accurate, though, and it's rather beside the point if you want to establish the trite position that lies sometimes happen in the mainstream press. If you want to establish the more ambitious claim that dishonesty is so rampant that it is fair to describe mainstream media as "incorrigibly dishonest" that's another thing entirely and not really accurate. There is an incorrigibly dishonest media to look at as an example of what might justify such a description, and sources like New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, etc., for all their ineptitude, don't get anywhere near that kind of label.

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Were any of Tracey's twitter's inaccurate?

Lol. Maybe a few, Mikwut. Maybe.


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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:47 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
There is an incorrigibly dishonest media to look at as an example of what might justify such a description, and sources like New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, etc., for all their ineptitude, don't get anywhere near that kind of label.


I agree with that.


Last edited by DoubtingThomas on Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:47 pm 
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mikwut wrote:

I gave a straight up example of the mainstream media lying to us for several years about the dossier.


Making the assertion and demonstrating your point are the same thing. You said, "The way CNN and MSNBC for years have supported the FBI and CIA respecting the veracity of the dossier etc. is absolutely disgusting and allows for the counterpoint of Fox News to exist."

The only disgusting dishonesty I've seen about the dossier has been coming from FOX. To this day they keep lying about how that was the sole reason the investigation began. To this day they keep insisting it has all been discredited without any attempt to understand what these kinds of dossiers are and how they're produced. They never once acknowledge the fact that Steele had been a reliable source for quite some time for the FBI and that not everything in the dossier was said to be incontrovertible fact. It was a collection of data produced over a period of time, some of which turned out to be true, some of which turned out not to be true, and a lot that we'll never really know if it is true or not.

FOX News is lying about the significance of the dossier for the same reasons they lie about the significance of the whistle-blower having first hand knowledge. The dossier was irrelevant, and now that the whistle-blower's complaints have been corroborated by multiple first hand witnesses, it doesn't matter anymore if the whistle-blower had first hand knowledge. But they want to keep focusing on that and the dossier because it makes it easier to dismiss all charges. That's the disgusting dishonesty I see in their media presentations.


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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:18 pm 
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Quote:
To this day they keep lying about how that was the sole reason the investigation began


I don't know of them saying that. I think they have been consistent that the FISA applications relied on the dossier and its sub/proto dossier's. Devin Nunes' memo was very consistent on that and I believe that is what FOX was relying on prior to the IG report.

Are you really trying to defend the dossier because some of it is actually true?

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:12 am 
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I've noticed the "both sides do it" crowd is largely made up of people who recognize that the GOP and their supporting media have gone off the deep end and living enthusiastically in crazy town, but because that is the party they've been supporting so long, it's easier to say "both sides do it" rather than admit the other side is more concerned with actual facts.

In other words, you have to be right-wing biased to think both sides are equally biased.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:03 pm 
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My argument isn't the they both do it. My argument is that they are symbiotic, they are like the wwe heal and hero. When CNN and MSNBC lie about the dossier that is what fuels fox news conspiracy theories and the worse of it. If they would have properly reported that all along fox would have looked absolutely ridiculous. Instead CNN and MSNBC throw them a bone and let people say, ya know, there might be something to this after all.

miwkut

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:14 pm 
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mikwut wrote:
If they would have properly reported that all along fox would have looked absolutely ridiculous.

Man... Fox needs nobody else in the world in order to look ridiculous. Nothing any other media outlet does can control or affect how ridiculous Fox really is (all they do is provide contrast). Ridiculousness is a conscious programming decision on Fox's part.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:04 am 
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Jesus Perfume, i'm talking about their audience. They don't have any narrative without the helpfrom cnn and msnbc. Parts of Fox's conspiracy theory is that FISA was obtained by using the goofy dossier. CNN and MSNBC feed that conspiracy by denying it for two years. That has no life if it is reported correctly all along.

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:42 am 
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mikwut wrote:
Jesus Perfume, i'm talking about their audience. They don't have any narrative without the helpfrom cnn and msnbc. Parts of Fox's conspiracy theory is that FISA was obtained by using the goofy dossier. CNN and MSNBC feed that conspiracy by denying it for two years. That has no life if it is reported correctly all along.

mikwut

No, you're wrong. You're part of the problem of feeding this narrative that it's everyone else's fault the right wing is as ____ up as it is.

No. It's not everyone else's fault. The right wing is ____ up because they choose to believe ____ up things in spite of all the available evidence. People reacting to them acting like idiots might contribute to their sense of victimhood, but this is all about the right wing being ____ delusional babies and believing obvious nonsense.

If you don't see the problem, you're part of it.

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Last edited by Some Schmo on Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:35 pm 
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So Perfume responds to my argument screaming, "No your wrong!". Good grief man.

I have been given some hope recently with the 7 piece series written in the WashIngton Post about the dossier. It drips with irony because the Post itself was guilty of many of the problems the series emphasizes but I digress. I would ask Perfume and others, and hope for more than NO! as a response, when there isn't a right wing publication to scream at what do you make of the argument I am making? The Post's series lays out plenty of examples of how the main stream media lied about the dossier. So is the Washington Post some right wing rag now?

What in the world is crazy about being just as diligent in pointing out these lies from the left as pointing it out on the right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... s-problem/

And Icarus, part 6 directly addresses the lawfare article you posted in this thread.

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:20 am 
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mikwut wrote:
So Perfume responds to my argument screaming, "No your wrong!". Good grief man.

If someone tries to make the argument that the earth is flat, should I take the time and measured response to disabuse that notion? Or should I not waste time and just say what most rational people think: that's crazy; you're wrong.

Your argument misplaces responsibility. Sorry, but you are ____ wrong. I'm not screaming; I'm simply telling you.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:39 am 
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It's becoming more and more clear over time that it's practically fruitless to have a political conversation with a trumpster or someone influenced by trumpsterism, because a huge portion of their worldview is fabricated out of whole cloth. They live in a shared fantasy world. The trump world is an MMO conducted in the theater of their minds.

Just look at all the ____ questions we get here from the Trump-adjacent.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:42 am 
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The corporate and geopolitical manipulation of social media over the last 4 years has been madding to watch unfold. It should be everyone's top issue. More so than the environmental crisis, drug epidemic, Chinese concentration camps, or any other human -created global event. It's continued unregulated state is what allows for all other new and major evils to flourish. It killed credible, reliable public discourse and replaced it with paid speech and forced narratives. All attempts at regulation over the last few years have been struck down, and there is still no protection for the people from it.

Again, I think the discerning citizen should be familiar with the Foundations of Geopolitics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundatio ... eopolitics

What's even more bizarre is how laissez-faire people seem to be about this overt attempt to destabilize our country AND just how many people within our borders seem to want a dissolution of our federal government not really understanding the long-term ramifications of such a thing. Shame.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:01 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
The corporate and geopolitical manipulation of social media over the last 4 years has been madding to watch unfold. It should be everyone's top issue. More so than the environmental crisis, drug epidemic, Chinese concentration camps, or any other human -created global event. It's continued unregulated state is what allows for all other new and major evils to flourish. It killed credible, reliable public discourse and replaced it with paid speech and forced narratives. All attempts at regulation over the last few years have been struck down, and there is still no protection for the people from it.

Again, I think the discerning citizen should be familiar with the Foundations of Geopolitics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundatio ... eopolitics

What's even more bizarre is how laissez-faire people seem to be about this overt attempt to destabilize our country AND just how many people within our borders seem to want a dissolution of our federal government not really understanding the long-term ramifications of such a thing. Shame.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:38 pm 
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Hey Doc,

Could you elaborate just a bit on how exactly the manipulation works? I'm familiar with the concept and the issue but I guess I don't really understand what exactly is being manipulated. Is it ads, forums, blogs, comments on Facebook?

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:54 pm 
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mikwut wrote:
Hey Doc,

Could you elaborate just a bit on how exactly the manipulation works? I'm familiar with the concept and the issue but I guess I don't really understand what exactly is being manipulated. Is it ads, forums, blogs, comments on Facebook?

mikwut


Well. Before I attempt to answer your questions, would you mind reading this article and the embedded report

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2 ... on/155400/

along with the linked wiki article above and then approach me with those questions, but maybe modified after reading the material? I'm not being dismissive, at all. I just want to make sure we're thinking the same things before discussing the topic.

- Doc

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