It is currently Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:14 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 207 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:34 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:59 am
Posts: 14623
honorentheos wrote:
Let's toss a little bit more on the table, again the argument being Trump is a compulsive liar who can't tell the truth even when the facts are staring him in the face. As demonstrated in the other thread, everyday brings a new one.

I would contend that it is pointless to argue with someone who claims Drumpf isn't a liar. It's not possible to have a rational discussion with someone that irrational. You'd have more success arguing with a dog. It's an intractable level of stupidity.

_________________
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:09 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 10179
I agree, but I don't think subbie doubts Trump is a liar. Instead, he seems to think Trump is just a prolific but inconsequential liar. He would argue other Presidents have told far more significant lies. My point to subbie is Trumps lies are compulsive. It's a pathology rather than just politics. I chose to use fresh off the press examples of his saying something that's both not true and is being said with the evidence before him that shows its not true to make the point it's constant and he can't help himself.

_________________
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:17 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:59 am
Posts: 14623
honorentheos wrote:
I agree, but I don't think subbie doubts Trump is a liar. Instead, he seems to think Trump is just a prolific but inconsequential liar. He would argue other Presidents have told far more significant lies. My point to subbie is Trumps lies are compulsive. It's a pathology rather than just politics. I chose to use fresh off the press examples of his saying something that's both not true and is being said with the evidence before him that shows its not true to make the point it's constant and he can't help himself.

subs is not here to discuss anything, he's not persuaded by rational arguments, and he doesn't trade in good faith.

Like any mindless Drumpf supporter, he doesn't think; he reacts, just like the ape he supports. Your comments to him are only of value to onlookers (which is a value by itself, granted. I suppose you have no illusions your comments are making any impression on him).

_________________
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:57 am 
High Priest

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:01 pm
Posts: 390
EAllusion wrote:
This is my single biggest concern with our political culture and what I think is the main driver of the problems we see with contemporary conservative / Republican politics. I think if we don’t reverse course soon this has the potential to collapse our democracy. The threat is that serious.

The thing is, as much as I think and read about this phenomenon, I’ve seen no viable solution. This produces a sense of despair and frustration that wouldn’t be there if there was a clear path to making the situation better. I’ll almost certainly read this, but I expect that it’ll also be at a loss for getting us out of this cultural hole.


What do you think about the recent claim on CNN that FOX News has become a legitimate threat to our National Security?

Sounds banana pants at first, but if you think about it, they do propagate dangerous conspiracy theories such as those about Russia and Ukraine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:26 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 10179
I saw the article from CNN contributor Garrett Graff in Wired on the topic. Did CNN carry it as well or a different story? I'd be surprised if CNN went that far in their opinion pieces, though.

That said, his article in Wired is worth reading.

https://www-wired-com.cdn.ampproject.or ... ecurity%2F

_________________
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:02 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 20054
Oof. I wish I hadn't read that article. :/

- Doc

_________________
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:08 pm 
High Priest

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:01 pm
Posts: 390
At some point you have to wonder if our intelligence agencies will start arguing the same point. It is their job to identify and address legitimate threats.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:04 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 3043
It's dangerous to deem those who disagree with one side's narrative as a national security threat. I'm sure Fox News lovers think the same thing about Rachel Maddow and CNN viewers. So, where does this end? Should Fox News be banned when CNN viewers are in power or should CNN be banned when Fox News viewers are in power? Also, what if both sides are corrupt liars, ginning up false narratives to benefit one side's billionaire class over the other side's billionaires, what then?

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:09 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 20054
Exiled wrote:
It's dangerous to deem those who disagree with one side's narrative as a national security threat. I'm sure Fox News lovers think the same thing about Rachel Maddow and CNN viewers. So, where does this end? Should Fox News be banned when CNN viewers are in power or should CNN be banned when Fox News viewers are in power? Also, what if both sides are corrupt liars, ginning up false narratives to benefit one side's billionaire class over the other side's billionaires, what then?


Well, it's pretty apparent to me that the success of FOX News is because a LOT of people have felt attacked by the left-leaning press since, probably, the 80's. When I was more Conservative, back in the day, I felt it acutely. It was always subtle, but over time it became more and more overt; I think FOX News filled a HUGE void for Conservatives who felt their issues were under constant attack rather than being championed like leftist issues were in the media.

You can also talk about the Overton window working both ways in the sense if you normalize what was once an unpalatable leftist issue, that issue now becomes the center, and a right-ist issue now is discussed as far-right much to the displeasure of Conservatives.

I'm not sure how much push and pull on the Overton window can occur before secessionist movements actually gain enough steam for revolution to happen, but it certainly does feel like we're a balkanized country at the moment. This, of course, plays right into this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundatio ... eopolitics

and I certainly don't think it'd be a good thing for the world if America would to dissolve into four or five factions. But who knows? We'll see where this democratic experiment goes.

- Doc

_________________
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:37 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 3043
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Well, it's pretty apparent to me that the success of FOX News is because a LOT of people have felt attacked by the left-leaning press since, probably, the 80's. When I was more Conservative, back in the day, I felt it acutely. It was always subtle, but over time it became more and more overt; I think FOX News filled a HUGE void for Conservatives who felt their issues were under constant attack rather than being championed like leftist issues were in the media.

You can also talk about the Overton window working both ways in the sense if you normalize what was once an unpalatable leftist issue, that issue now becomes the center, and a right-ist issue now is discussed as far-right much to the displeasure of Conservatives.

I'm not sure how much push and pull on the Overton window can occur before secessionist movements actually gain enough steam for revolution to happen, but it certainly does feel like we're a balkanized country at the moment. This, of course, plays right into this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundatio ... eopolitics

and I certainly don't think it'd be a good thing for the world if America would to dissolve into four or five factions. But who knows? We'll see where this democratic experiment goes.

- Doc


I suspect a lot of this is media hype. Fox found it could make money in a fragmented media world taking one side and CNN and MSNBC have chosen to take the counterpoint to cater to those who hate Hannity and his ilk. I find the Trump supporters I know and the resistance supporters I know to not be at the point of wanting to take up arms against one another despite media portrayals. I guess that could change.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:21 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 10179
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=52814

Trumpstock attendees say they are used to being denounced, another quality they feel they share with the president. It’s part of why they are protective of him, to the point that they refuse to acknowledge the possibility of a Trump loss in 2020.

Mark Villalta said he had been stockpiling firearms, in case Mr. Trump’s re-election is not successful.

“Nothing less than a civil war would happen,” Mr. Villalta said, his right hand reaching for a holstered handgun. “I don’t believe in violence, but I’ll do what I got to do.”

_________________
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:03 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 1605
Location: Colorado
Exiled is right about the media. But I lean toward EAllusion's more concerning position respecting the divisions in the country being serious. What I don't know is why for example so many on this site let the other side of the media get away with just blatant falsehoods and believe that Fox news is the whole problem. The way CNN and MSNBC for years have supported the FBI and CIA respecting the veracity of the dossier etc. is absolutely disgusting and allows for the counterpoint of Fox News to exist. It is like the WWE where you guys are insisting its real because the heal is just so much of a bad guy you have to believe the other side real. The whole thing is nonsense so why support one side of the nonsense? Call the whole thing what it is ____.

mikwut

_________________
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:30 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 10179
I think this comment from EAllusion from earlier in the thread applies here. And for the reasons that are best encapsulated in Res Ipsa's signature quote from Hannah Arend -

​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

EAllusion's comment:

There's a very important distinction I tried to highlight earlier in the thread between material that is intentionally ideological and material that is dishonest. There are lots of perfectly good sources that are ideological in nature where their biases are related to what topics they choose to cover and how the writing editorializes the implications of reported facts. I think it's a good idea to try to get a well-rounded sense of the public debate by checking in on multiple respectable ideological points of view. That needs to be kept distinct from sources that are dishonest, and especially those that are egregiously so. The main problem with the right-wing media ecosystem isn't simply that it is right-wing. It's that dishonesty and bad faith is pervasive.

Orwell is still somewhat fresh on my mind after having completed the book previously mentioned in another thread. The argument that all news is "____" in competing ways is a an argument for the take over of authoritarian rule in that it leaves everyone engaging as conspiratorial narcissists. Once one sees all news sources as dishonest, one is beyond truth and falsehood. No one else being trustworthy, ones own biases and sense of the truth become immune from examination. The impenetrable opinion that everyone is being played for fools by anyone and everyone in power is absolute to the point it flattens out every other issue into the binary of establishment or...well, the opinion of what are the real facts according to the conspiratorial narcissist. These referenced "facts" usually don't exist as statements to be presented with evidence because they are understood to be hidden from us by the establishment. So one is presented with possibilities and arguments one would be convinced of the truth of something if only the facts could be made public. But that's just smoke and mirrors. The reality is the apparent subject of discussion is being subverted into the obsessive topic of anti-establishment conspiracy.

_________________
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:01 pm 
High Priest

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:01 pm
Posts: 390
Exiled wrote:
It's dangerous to deem those who disagree with one side's narrative as a national security threat.


That's not what he did. He didn't call FOX a danger to national security simply because he had "disagreements" with FOX news. He explained in detail the various ways in which FOX presents itself as a legit danger to national security.

Quote:
I'm sure Fox News lovers think the same thing about Rachel Maddow and CNN viewers.


They would be idiots then. Please list all the ways in which Rachel Maddow has encouraged millions of citizens, via massive disinformation campaigns, to discredit and attack our own national security mechanisms that are in place, while taking the side of a tyrannical dictator simply because that would personally benefit the guy they voted for. I'm guessing you wouldn't be able to name even one.

Quote:
So, where does this end? Should Fox News be banned when CNN viewers are in power or should CNN be banned when Fox News viewers are in power? Also, what if both sides are corrupt liars, ginning up false narratives to benefit one side's billionaire class over the other side's billionaires, what then?


But they're not. CNN isn't even in the same ballpark as FOX when it comes to "ginning up false narratives to benefit" their "billionaire class."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:10 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 1605
Location: Colorado
Hi Honor,

Hmmmmm. So let me try to understand. Fox News is just blatantly dishonest when wrong, they have an intent and follow through with it, right? CNN, MSNBC they certainly have an ideology so when wrong it was just ideological misgivings at play not blatant dishonesty? And you place that distinction into the comparative high sky of Hannah Arendt, Orwell and tyranny? Jesus Christ man. it is just ____ on both sides. If one reads for example Horowitz's report and then watches the news coverage from CNN and MSNBC trying to cover that Bul-shi-t with ideology is just more ____. And I gotta admit trying to persuade anyone different is with high fluenting literature as the backdrop for support is ____ of an even high order. I spent 8 hours, well into the night reading the report for myself and then watching the nonsense reporting. Michael Tracey is not a Fox News loving MAGA hat wearer, he is far from it and he has reported clearly how dishonest the reporting has been on that report. That is just one example.

Calling the entire mainstream media to the carpet and not indulging either side of the nonsense is how we should respond to it. Not by tolerating blatant lies in the name of Arendt.

mikwut

_________________
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:43 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 10179
Hi mikwut -

The linked article from Garrett Graff in Wired is an example of a report where I found the initial dichotomy using the findings from Horowitz to be embarrassing to his overall argument. Had you mentioned that in your post as a specific point I would likely have agreed. But it's in Wired and where I expect that slant.

I can't map out where I came to my understanding of the content of the Horowitz report, what I read on CNN compared to NPR, Reason, or any other source. I can say my understanding of it without spending time reading it into the middle of the night was that it disputed the claim by Barr and others that the initial investigation was motivated out of politics and was based on valid investigative grounds, but the execution was so flawed and sloppy it likely led to FISA courts making decisions they might not have had the evidence been presented fully or correctly. Maybe the deep dive into the Horowitz report reveals more and perhaps that accounts for your focus before on the Steele Dossier in your general comment about the collaboration between CNN and the CIA/FBI. But my takeaway from the reporting overall was that no one was getting what they wanted, it looked pretty bad for the FBI, but there was no evidence for the claims being put out by Fox News and AG Barr that the FBI under Obama pursued an investigation of Trump due to partisan political motivations.

Your overall comment in the previous post was a bit bananas, and conspiratorial. CNN and MSNBC being outlets for pushing the agenda of the FBI and CIA in an Orwellian manner to control the narrative is conspiratorial nonsense.

_________________
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:01 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 10179
Here are a few examples of CNN reporting on the results of the investigation into the investigation as it's called:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/17/politics ... index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/18/politics ... index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/11/politics ... index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/29/politics ... index.html

_________________
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:12 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 1605
Location: Colorado
Hi honor,

Quote:
I can't map out where I came to my understanding of the content of the Horowitz report, what I read on CNN compared to NPR, Reason, or any other source. I can say my understanding of it without spending time reading it into the middle of the night was that it disputed the claim by Barr and others that the initial investigation was motivated out of politics and was based on valid investigative grounds, but the execution was so flawed and sloppy it likely led to FISA courts making decisions they might not have had the evidence been presented fully or correctly.


My position is both sides of the mainstream media are incorrigibly dishonest. For the mainstream media to present the IG report in the benign way as you understand it (just human errors) is inexplicable in trying to understand that as anything other than dishonest. There is a kernel of truth in the reporting that Horowitz did not make a final conclusion of political bias but that conclusion also did not fall within the methods, the narrow scope, burden and the ability of his sort of "audit" to conclude. And that doesn't get pointed out which is dishonest. The abuses found in his report should shock any thinking American, left or right. It is the media framing narratives on these things that is the greatest abuse. To leave actual exculpatory evidence from the Court, to alter 180 degrees documents and then present that to the Court, to continue to use unverified and even proven untrustworthy evidence with the Court, just lying to the Court are abuses transcendent of ones politics. That 51 "human errors" ALL go against the President when exculpatory evidence existed and not presented is not just sloppiness.

The report also clearly demonstrates the mainstream media's continual lie that the Steele dossier was not the central, in fact THE source, for obtaining continued FISA warrants. That has nothing to do with ideological bent. That information was known for the past couple of years yet it was continually pressed by the press in a deceitful manner. The initial investigation is such a low bar it is nearly irrelevant, we are talking about jokes and drinks at a bar for heaven's sake. But to fail to report that the basis past that opening of an investigation were anything but unwarranted is just not factual in the least.

None of that is defending Donald Trump or putting on a MAGA hat. It demonstrates what I am saying. A failure of the mainstream media to properly hold intelligence agencies to the fire, which is what we would expect our press to do, to speak truth to all power not just Donald Trump, allows for the FoxNews' of the world to gain credibility because the balanced narrative was lost and the WWE hero and villian narrative is all that is left.

mikwut

_________________
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:47 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 17275
Mikwut's summary is somewhat inaccurate, probably owing to the dubious sources he occasionally namechecks as following, but it is true that the continuing FISA renewals were riddled with systematic errors to advantage getting further approvals. I'd eat my hat if you couldn't find similar errors thoughout the the entire system if you took a similar microscope to it. That the FISA courts act as a virtual rubber stamp and federal law enforcement works them over with little scrutiny is been both in the open and something beltway media has largely been uninterested in going back years and years. That should be a bigger story, though the reason that it isn't probably isn't due to anti-Trump bias. It's probably due to the fact that neither party is interested in reforming the current process to make federal law enforcement have a harder time obtaining these type of warrants, so the media respects the bipartisan consensus and follows suit in viewing it as a niche issue. You could make IG report a bigger story, but the debate is largely focused on right-wing lies about it that try to validate false conspiratorial claims and counter responses to those lies. That serious problems were uncovered that make a case for significant reform is something neither party, and therefore neither party's media surrogates, seems interested in taking on. It's reported about, but not focused on.

The bias in this case is more towards power. One sign that this is the case is that it's a matter of public knowledge that the FBI intervened into the 2016 election in a way that almost certainly threw the election to Trump. Further, we also know James Comey made the decision to do so to quell and preempt anti-Clinton elements within the organization, in particular the New York office that probably was the source of anti-Clinton leaks. There hasn't even been an IG investigation into this despite that there obviously should be one because the Trump admin has chilled it out of existence. The media isn't in a rage about this though. Certain reporters are, of course, but "the media" meaning the major news sources with lots of eyeballs, treats it as a nonstory for roughly the same reason. There's a bipartisan consensus to move past it, so they do.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:58 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 17275
Here's two recent articles I think are worth reading. The first is from the Columbia journalism review:

https://www.cjr.org/the_media_today/bot ... -trump.php

And this one is from pressthink:

http://pressthink.org/2019/12/the-chris ... huck-todd/

Both briefly address bothsideism, which is the companion to and enabler of right-wing media marching us into oblivion.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Damage Done by the Right-Wing Media in 2016
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:34 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 1605
Location: Colorado
OK E. I read them both. How does either article dissuade me that the mainstream press, not just a corner of it, i.e. Fox News, peddles in constant dishonesty?

_________________
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 207 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group