It is currently Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:32 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:46 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:57 pm
Posts: 3861
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Doc Cam posted a little comment about the Yuan in another thread, and I wanted to share some tidbits that others might find interesting, but didn’t want to derail the other thread.

There is a significant counterfeiting industry in China. Not only are there sophisticated things like the “superdollar” (an exceptionally high-quality $100 bill counterfeit) that has been found to circulate heavily around the China/North Korea border, but there are much simpler operations as well that use old fashioned hand-operated coin presses.

Just about any counterfeit pre-65 US silver coinage can be bought in bulk through places like Alibaba. The pictures will have “copy” on the coin, but the actual coins when shipped will not have the word “copy” anywhere on them. I have a few Walking Liberty halves, and Morgan dollars I’ve inadvertently picked up over the years. They range from ridiculously obvious fakes to having to break out a loupe and check letter spacing and fonts. Also, counterfeits of most of the popular bullion mints can be bought from China (SilverTown, APMEX, Monarch, Johnson Mathey, Engelhard, Provident, Etc.)

The bullion bars/rounds are one of the more ironic counterfeit monetary items that pour out of China. The irony is that of the many government issued bullion products, China’s silver pandas carry a much higher premium above spot than the US’s silver eagles, Canada’s maples, or Austrian philharmonics.

While a few of the items are behind a paywall, FakeBullion.com has a lot of examples you can look at of what are mostly Chinese counterfeits.

They also counterfeit collectible numismatic items that are in counterfeit graded plastic holders (“slabbed”) from the major coin-grading companies. One of the more frustrating aspects of this is that buying slabbed coins used to be a failsafe method of avoiding counterfeits. With PCGS (currently the premier grading service), some of the slabs even contain the accurate information used for online verification.

While the US government lost the case, there was also a suit brought against a Chinese-based company a few years ago over cashing in mutilated coinage. The company claimed that it was coinage salvaged from scrap cars, and other recycling. On a manpower side, they’d definitely be able to do it and have it profitable. The problem though is that the numbers just didn’t add up. I’m going by memory (and this was my number-crunching, so it might have been completely off), but the number of half dollars they submitted would be more than not only all circulating half dollars minted, but also all mint packages and proof sets.

Anyway, just some random tidbits on Chinese counterfeit operations. When I use the term “they,” I don’t do it to imply the Chinese government is actively engaged in the efforts… the government just doesn’t really seem to care that it’s going on.

There’s no telling just how much is out there not only in private collections, but in government PM reserves that’s actually just gold-plated tungsten, or silver-plated bismuth.

_________________
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:42 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:15 pm
Posts: 4107
That's interesting. Of course, I believe the US Government has been printing and minting counterfeit currency for decades...

_________________
Cinepro's Got a Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:10 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 11504
cinepro wrote:
That's interesting. Of course, I believe the US Government has been printing and minting counterfeit currency for decades...

Huh? Do you mean by abandoning the gold standard and having fiat currency? I wouldn't have taken you for a goldbug. The value behind gold is no more real than the value behind the full faith and credit of the US government.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:56 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 4236
EAllusion wrote:
cinepro wrote:
That's interesting. Of course, I believe the US Government has been printing and minting counterfeit currency for decades...

Huh? Do you mean by abandoning the gold standard and having fiat currency? I wouldn't have taken you for a goldbug. The value behind gold is no more real than the value behind the full faith and credit of the US government.

But ... but ... it's so shiny and pretty. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:40 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:53 pm
Posts: 1383
EAllusion wrote:
cinepro wrote:
That's interesting. Of course, I believe the US Government has been printing and minting counterfeit currency for decades...

Huh? Do you mean by abandoning the gold standard and having fiat currency? I wouldn't have taken you for a goldbug. The value behind gold is no more real than the value behind the full faith and credit of the US government.
Yep. Some folks have mistaken notions about gold's intrinsic value, but its actual worth is simply whatever a buyer and seller agree it to be. So yay Nixon.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:08 am 
God

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:51 pm
Posts: 6071
Plus Russia could swamp the gold market at anytime it wants, because of its vast gold reserves. So much for controlling the value of our own currency.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:05 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 8668
Location: Your mother's purse
Bret Ripley wrote:
Yep. Some folks have mistaken notions about gold's intrinsic value, but its actual worth is simply whatever a buyer and seller agree it to be. So yay Nixon.

sez the guy who has no idea of why gold is valuable...your ignorant assertion could be placed upon anything if one wishes to oversimplify to the point of ignorance. The idea that there is no "intrinsic" value is kinda refuted by science. Scarcity, stability, and unique beauty.

Do you even know what makes the 8 or so Noble Elements so unique? (No, its not their bloodline)...8 out of the 118 elements fit this category, and with good reason. And 6 of these metals are extremely rare, rare to the point of absurdity for being a viable currency.....not to mention the melting points (oh vey!)....so, pretty much left with 2 elements...2 that barely react with any others...except 1 of them is prone to tarnish (yea, you noob that 1 is silver). Guess how many of the elements are silvery in color?....yep, all of them except copper and gold....and the former corrodes quite easily.

So, yeah, while Nixon couldn't back the dollar with gold anymore, its value is still something more than just an arbitrary whim (aka more than just the latest DNC platform)

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:12 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:51 pm
Posts: 6071
Diamonds are a girls best friend. :wink: Gold price relative to inflation track pretty well, with some marked variations. So it maybe a good hedge against hyperinflation, but the US really has never experience such. Our biggest problems have come from Recessions/Depressions(Panics by another name). The problems with gold as a currency are that it is heavy to carry more than small quantities, counterfeiting, and fractionalization are discourage by severe punishment. Plus there is no means by which provenance can be maintained. Did I just dig that gold out of the ground or did I earn it some other government approved way, and how would it be taxed. We really don't want to return to a time when we had to carry highly accurate, and verified, scales around just to buy everyday products. Plus have an up to moment accounting of the market value for gold. Paper and now plastic form the bulk of everyday purchases. And increasingly electronic blips for larger transactions. So have some gold jewelry if you really like having something pretty to look at, but it isn't very good for currency.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:02 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm
Posts: 17733
Location: Koloburbia
Image
Royal rare element Mormonium

_________________
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:10 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:51 pm
Posts: 6071
Looks a lot like Iron Pyrite. It is pretty common, and it's not an element at all, but a compound.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:36 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 4236
subgenius wrote:
Do you even know what makes the 8 or so Noble Elements so unique? (No, its not their bloodline)...8 out of the 118 elements fit this category, and with good reason. And 6 of these metals are extremely rare, rare to the point of absurdity for being a viable currency.....not to mention the melting points (oh vey!)....so, pretty much left with 2 elements...2 that barely react with any others...except 1 of them is prone to tarnish (yea, you noob that 1 is silver). Guess how many of the elements are silvery in color?....yep, all of them except copper and gold....and the former corrodes quite easily.

So, yeah, while Nixon couldn't back the dollar with gold anymore, its value is still something more than just an arbitrary whim (aka more than just the latest DNC platform)

So, what properties made it so valuable when it was decided that it was so valuable ... several thousand years ago?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:39 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:53 pm
Posts: 1383
subgenius wrote:
Bret Ripley wrote:
Yep. Some folks have mistaken notions about gold's intrinsic value, but its actual worth is simply whatever a buyer and seller agree it to be. So yay Nixon.

sez the guy who has no idea of why gold is valuable...your ignorant assertion could be placed upon anything if one wishes to oversimplify to the point of ignorance.
Instead of repeating 'ignorance' a second time I would have ended that sentence with 'absurdity.' But I quibble!
Quote:
The idea that there is no "intrinsic" value is kinda refuted by science. Scarcity, stability, and unique beauty.
Awesome. If I ever say that gold's value is totally arbitrary I hope you will remember to trot this out.

Of course things have economic value for reasons. Scarcity, stability, and unique beauty are properties that contribute to gold's value. In terms of intrinsic value ... well, let's stick with absurdity: if gold is trading for $1,300 an ounce, how many of those dollars are attributable to intrinsic value and how many to non-intrinsic factors? Here, just for giggles I'll even go all Heinlein on you: what is the intrinsic value of a bar of gold to a man drowning in the middle of the Atlantic?

I know that's just silly talk. The real issue is this: there is no good argument for a return to the gold standard. But in the interest of fairness, here is an exhaustive list of economists who advocate for a return to the gold standard:





<sad trombone 'WAH-wah' sound>There aren't any. Seriously. You can look it up.
Quote:
Do you even know what makes the 8 or so Noble Elements so unique?
Do you even know that every country in the world has abandoned the gold standard monetary system? I'll bet you probably did. Oh, but thanks for the remedial Chemistry lesson -- now I won't feel quite so guilty about not watching Nova tonight.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:56 pm 
Area Authority
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:49 pm
Posts: 605
money is money...

in albania and yugoslavia's descendant countries, people widely use old german mark ("deutschmark") coins and banknotes

btw
Quote:
The Deutsche Bundesbank has guaranteed that all German marks in cash form may be changed into euros indefinitely, and one may do so in person at any branch of the Bundesbank in Germany. Banknotes and coins can even be sent to the Bundesbank by mail.
---
On 31 December 1998, the Council of the European Union fixed the irrevocable exchange rate, effective 1 January 1999, for German mark to euros as DM 1.95583 = €1.

six digit...

_________________
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:22 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 8668
Location: Your mother's purse
canpakes wrote:
So, what properties made it so valuable when it was decided that it was so valuable ... several thousand years ago?

Who can say for sure? But I consider the previously mentioned "Scarcity, stability, and unique beauty" as being likely candidates for those properties. Science seemingly confirms this, but perhaps you know better.

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:49 am 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 11504
How does science confirm gold is beautiful subgenius?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:23 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 4236
subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
So, what properties made it so valuable when it was decided that it was so valuable ... several thousand years ago?

Who can say for sure? But I consider the previously mentioned "Scarcity, stability, and unique beauty" as being likely candidates for those properties. Science seemingly confirms this, but perhaps you know better.

What is beneficial about basing the currency of the most prosperous economy on the planet on something that is scarce or that has 'unique beauty'?
Does scarcity affect the rate or scope of economic expansion?
How is the 'stability' (corrosion resistance) of a material make it appropriate to back a nation's commerce? Would bricks of granite or glass blocks do just as well? Why or why not?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:39 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:53 pm
Posts: 1383
canpakes wrote:
What is beneficial about basing the currency of the most prosperous economy on the planet on something that is scarce or that has 'unique beauty'?
Does scarcity affect the rate or scope of economic expansion?
How is the 'stability' (corrosion resistance) of a material make it appropriate to back a nation's commerce? Would bricks of granite or glass blocks do just as well? Why or why not?
Back in the early '80s my roommates and I adopted a currency system based on M&Ms and Hostess Ding Dongs. Our hypothesis was that it would work reasonably well until someone brought home a box of Ho Hos, thereby triggering all sorts of protectionist measures. In reality, it only functioned well for about 20 minutes but after that became frightfully susceptible to scarcity-driven hyper-valuation.


Last edited by Bret Ripley on Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:57 am 
God

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:51 pm
Posts: 6071
canpakes wrote:
What is beneficial about basing the currency of the most prosperous economy on the planet on something that is scarce or that has 'unique beauty'?
Does scarcity affect the rate or scope of economic expansion?
How is the 'stability' (corrosion resistance) of a material make it appropriate to back a nation's commerce? Would bricks of granite or glass blocks do just as well? Why or why not?


Nothing per say. It is all fiat based. I'm willing to trade "X" amount of goods/labor for "X" amount of gold, silver, copper, paper, plastic, electronic blips.

Yes. Too little, and an economy regresses(Depression). Too much and an economy can't produce enough goods/service to keep up(Inflation).

It doesn't per say. We want money relatively durable, and easily conveyed from one person to another at an agreed to value. Granite and/or glass blocks just don't have that ability.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:54 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 8668
Location: Your mother's purse
EAllusion wrote:
How does science confirm gold is beautiful subgenius?

Basically, by the same manner that it confirms anything.

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:03 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 8668
Location: Your mother's purse
canpakes wrote:
What is beneficial about basing the currency of the most prosperous economy on the planet on something that is scarce or that has 'unique beauty'?

Your question is a bit broad and dismisses the history of currency. If you are suggesting that the scarcity of something does not influence it's value then I would simply disagree and briefly wait for you to realize how scarcity does indeed influence value.



canpakes wrote:
Does scarcity affect the rate or scope of economic expansion?

Yes


canpakes wrote:
How is the 'stability' (corrosion resistance) of a material make it appropriate to back a nation's commerce?

Longevity would be important. Coins that rusted away or grain that rotted after a season would likely be an undesirable "foundation" for currency.

canpakes wrote:
Would bricks of granite or glass blocks do just as well? Why or why not?

No they would not because they do not suffer from scarcity.

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: China and Counterfeit Currency
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:09 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:53 pm
Posts: 1383
EAllusion wrote:
How does science confirm gold is beautiful subgenius?
subgenius wrote:
Science!
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group