It is currently Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:11 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 199 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:09 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 11815
Location: On the imaginary axis
Analytics wrote:
Either this Ta-Nehisi Coates guy doesn't know even the most basic uncontroversial facts of American history (such as the fact that George Washington was a president and was white), or he can't even count to 1. He thinks Trump is the first white president? There were 43 white presidents before Trump, give or take.


Actually, he said that in a fairly well crafted context - see bolded bits below in particular. I'm not saying his rhetoric works perfectly. But it is not simple nonsense.

Quote:
For Trump, it almost seems that the fact of Obama, the fact of a black president, insulted him personally. The insult intensified when Obama and Seth Meyers publicly humiliated him at the White House Correspondents’ Dinner in 2011. But the bloody heirloom ensures the last laugh. Replacing Obama is not enough—Trump has made the negation of Obama’s legacy the foundation of his own. And this too is whiteness. “Race is an idea, not a fact,” the historian Nell Irvin Painter has written, and essential to the construct of a “white race” is the idea of not being a n*****. Before Barack Obama, n*****s could be manufactured out of Sister Souljahs, Willie Hortons, and Dusky Sallys. But Donald Trump arrived in the wake of something more potent—an entire n***** presidency with n***** health care, n***** climate accords, and n***** justice reform, all of which could be targeted for destruction or redemption, thus reifying the idea of being white. Trump truly is something new—the first president whose entire political existence hinges on the fact of a black president. And so it will not suffice to say that Trump is a white man like all the others who rose to become president. He must be called by his rightful honorific—America’s first white president.


THE SCOPE OF TRUMP’S commitment to whiteness is matched only by the depth of popular disbelief in the power of whiteness. We are now being told that support for Trump’s “Muslim ban,” his scapegoating of immigrants, his defenses of police brutality are somehow the natural outgrowth of the cultural and economic gap between Lena Dunham’s America and Jeff Foxworthy’s. The collective verdict holds that the Democratic Party lost its way when it abandoned everyday economic issues like job creation for the softer fare of social justice. The indictment continues: To their neoliberal economics, Democrats and liberals have married a condescending elitist affect that sneers at blue-collar culture and mocks the white man as history’s greatest monster and prime-time television’s biggest doofus. In this rendition, Donald Trump is not the product of white supremacy so much as the product of a backlash against contempt for white working-class people.

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:15 am 
Regional Representative
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm
Posts: 659
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Xenophon wrote:
Perhaps I'm just dense but I don't really see how that was a response to anything I said. Nice hashtags though. #lift4lyfe


I was addressing the globalization issue with one finger tapping on my tablet while ellipticalling. Give a guy some credit.

- Doc

I earnestly didn't get that from your post, although it was humorous. I gather you are suggesting that this it is just the narrative that globalization is the problem and not the fact of the situation. I won't be offended if you wait until you are home to type up a response or ignore me entirely.

_________________
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:18 am 
God

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:51 pm
Posts: 6089
I was being a little bit tongue in cheek. But only a little bit. If actions speak louder than words the Bill Clinton was our first black President. We're a long ways from the Dixiecrats, but still have a long ways to go before "I have a Dream".


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:39 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:24 pm
Posts: 3432
Location: La Mancha
Chap wrote:
Analytics wrote:
Either this Ta-Nehisi Coates guy doesn't know even the most basic uncontroversial facts of American history (such as the fact that George Washington was a president and was white), or he can't even count to 1. He thinks Trump is the first white president? There were 43 white presidents before Trump, give or take.


Actually, he said that in a fairly well crafted context - see bolded bits below in particular. I'm not saying his rhetoric works perfectly. But it is not simple nonsense....

Anybody who thinks Trump is the first white president is mentally ill.

_________________

"Don't they know that the soul is made of harmonies and that harmonies are not created but by the concurrency or by the properties of the objects that are seen and heard?"
- Leonardo da Vinci

All religion is obviously silly, like all sports.
-Symmachus


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:41 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 12469
Xenophon wrote:
You're definitely the funniest guy on the Internet, but you really need to flesh out your idea a bit more, Jackass.


Ok. I'll try. But be advised I'm just a guy, an average schmuck, and I take my thoughts on these matters about as seriously as you'd expect someone who spends the few minutes to crap out an opinion, like I do, does.

Right up front I want to state that I think globalism is inevitable, and it's a positive fact that trade brings countries closer together; it helps reduce the likelihood of conflicts (generally) through shared economic interests. That's actually a strategic narrative our government has used for a long time (let's not talk about Cuba and other sanctions; it's too complicated because it's really a case-by-case situation). Opening up markets brings trade which brings liberal democracy. That's a good thing as long as we don't immorally exploit people and the environment.

Long story short we've enjoyed relative global peace for the second half of the 20th century, despite the Cold War and it's various proxy wars. There was an absolute lack of world infrastructure left after that disastrous war. With one exception. Us. And goddamn if we didn't make the most of it. Baby Boomers could work a blue collar job, have a house, make another house, a boat, send their kids to college. It was the American dream.

And then competition happened. It was inevitable as people and countries were like, "Why not us? Why can't we build that here, and better our own situation?" And they're doing it in spades.

Aside from the historical race to the bottom as countries undercut one another to win business from wealthy developed economies & multinational corporations the fact is they do get these businesses to invest in their countries, we lose them to people who don't have the same wage and OSHA standards we do, and it's starting to show ESPECIALLY once these countries get to the point where they can just build their own ____ rather than have us do it and ship it to them. Those are huge markets we're not only losing, but we can't compete in.

Obviously I don't think the downsides of globalisation are a reason to close borders, increase tariffs, and put up barriers to try and recreate an imagined 'Make America Great Again'.

THAT is what Trump promises to the unemployed, underpaid, and overworked.

And it's never happening again. Unfortunately it's an easy dream to sell if you make The Other the reason for your all your troubles. Democrats get it. They've been blaming straight white people for years in order to build a rainbow coalition so they can push their economic agenda.


Anyway, I hope I hope I hope, the future doesn't belong to corporations. The future can't logistically be built around profit, consumerism, and avarice. It must instead be led by movements of people who reject greed because of the damage it's done to the planet and the world's poorest. It must be a world of trade with smart regulation that resists profit as a driver, but puts people at its heart. And most importantly, the future must be protected from environmental exploitation, which has been fueled by the greed I mentioned earlier. In this world, we can still have global trade and people movement, but trade and migration will be supported well thought-out policies not driven by nationalistic dogma or ideological purity, but by a concern for our shared humanity and a safe, healthy world for us all.

The Democrats might like to think they promote that idea, what I just summarized with the last paragraph, but they ____ it up over and over again through fractious language, divisive blame shifting, and a lack of, I dunno, ability to actually promote specific agendas that wow the electorate.

- Doc

_________________
In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:55 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 11815
Location: On the imaginary axis
Analytics wrote:
Anybody who thinks Trump is the first white president is mentally ill.


If you must.

I just think he fell into rhetorical over-reach. A pity that his eminence as an (it seems) widely admired commentator prevented an editor from saying 'Uh, Ta-Nehisi, I can see what you are trying to do with that 'Trump is the first white president' stuff, but trust me, it doesn't really work'.

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:26 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:59 am
Posts: 11832
Chap wrote:
Analytics wrote:
Anybody who thinks Trump is the first white president is mentally ill.

If you must.

I just think he fell into rhetorical over-reach. A pity that his eminence as an (it seems) widely admired commentator prevented an editor from saying 'Uh, Ta-Nehisi, I can see what you are trying to do with that 'Trump is the first white president' stuff, but trust me, it doesn't really work'.

I'm pretty sure Analytics is parodying Cam with that mentally ill line.

_________________
"You get to have your own beliefs, and your own wishes, and dreams, and imaginations. What you don't get to have is your own reality." - Sethbag

"Good thing your safe space isn't being violated with the horrors of self-awareness." - Dmetri Cromwell (some guy on Facebook)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:31 pm 
Regional Representative
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm
Posts: 659
Thanks for clarifying, Cam. I think many of us can find a lot to agree with in your post, particularly that second to last paragraph.

Now, do I post my rant against your misquoting of me here or dump it in to MG's thread up in terrestrial? :lol:

_________________
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:44 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 11532
His thesis is that Trump is the first president to win as the white identity candidate. Previous white candidates that won either weren't or didn't need to be.

Nixon, maybe to an extent, is the best shot at being a refuting example.

It's not enough to point out other presidents were racists or pursued racist politics. His argument is more narrow.

(I know Analytics is joking. I'm just clarifying.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:53 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 12469
Xenophon wrote:
Thanks for clarifying, Cam. I think many of us can find a lot to agree with in your post, particularly that second to last paragraph.

Now, do I post my rant against your misquoting of me here or dump it in to MG's thread up in terrestrial? :lol:


Oh my god I wish you would've done that.

- Doc

_________________
In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:19 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 11815
Location: On the imaginary axis
Some Schmo wrote:
I'm pretty sure Analytics is parodying Cam with that mentally ill line.


You're probably right. At least I hope so.

Frankly, distinguishing sincerity and parody on this board is getting more and more difficult.

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:40 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 4244
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Unfortunately it's an easy dream to sell if you make The Other the reason for your all your troubles. Democrats get it. They've been blaming straight white people for years in order to build a rainbow coalition so they can push their economic agenda.

Anyway, I hope I hope I hope, the future doesn't belong to corporations. The future can't logistically be built around profit, consumerism, and avarice. It must instead be led by movements of people who reject greed because of the damage it's done to the planet and the world's poorest.

I would so love to agree on the premise of the second paragraph, but the one that immediately precedes it proves that it's largely a fool's errand persuading the folks who so willingly and agreeably swallow the 'Other' argument to instead turn course and join in with an altruistic movement against greed and consumerism.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:44 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 12469
Just appeal to their selfishness then. Everyone is ultimately self-interested. Develop a message that appeals to their sense of wanting to be great, investing in American infrastructure, being visionaries and leaders, everyone contributing to a common goal, whatever. I don't know why Democrats can't be inspiring to the middle.

Show Democrats who have been warriors. Win the patriotism angle.

Show Democrats who invented modernity. Win the American ingenuity angle.

Show Democrats who are amazing athletes. Win our sports obsession angle.

Show Democrats who got superstructures built. Win the Make America Great Again angle.

Politick the middle with greatness, not grievance, and you'll win their votes. Make them believe they are you, that they can be great too. Unify to conquer.

- Doc

_________________
In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:59 pm 
Bishop
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:46 pm
Posts: 494
Location: Peacekeeper Territories
Show Democrats that don't want a bloated and wasteful government.

Show Democrats that believe that personal responsibility comes first, a work ethic second, and handouts last.

Show Democrats that call fringe elements on the far left for what they are.

Show Democrats that believe that in a world of limited resources, Americans have to come first.

Show Democrats that are reasonable with respect to taxes and bureaucracy.


I think these things would win back some normal folks.

_________________
“A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.”


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:05 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 12469
BMC,

How do you feel about upticking the 5%'ers' tax rate so we can get some infrastructure projects done, some Americans to work, and reduce our national debt a bit?

- Doc

_________________
In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:21 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 11532
Xenophon wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Once again, name me one other white man that could've pulled that off.

- Doc

I don't know who else could have done it, I don't know any in a similar situation as Trump's that have tried. Is your argument that because Trump was exceptionally good at tapping into that racial animosity that he didn't actually do it? I'm really not following how your question clarifies anything here but I'm interested in what you think it shows.

Doc's argument is this:

Trump is a sample size of one. Yes, no black candidate could win doing what Trump did, but no white candidate could either. He's an entity unto himself. Can you imagine Mitt Romney getting away with things Trump said? I can't. Therefore, race is irrelevant.

First, you have to understand while there is no candidate who has ascended to the presidency that is like Trump, there are leading indicators that candidates like him are nationally viable if white. Kid Rock is a viable Senate candidate right now. I think the viability of someone like Trump is a recent phenomenon that depends on the weakening of Republican party institutions as right-wing media consumes it. Trump is fairly unique, but he's not so unique that it is difficult to imagine someone like him winning. It's hard to combine Trump's thoughtless extremism with his personal vices, but you also get candidates within the Republican party who hold crazy-offensive opinions on the regular. Roy Moore is currently the frontrunner for Alabama Senate, for goodness sake.

What is impossible to imagine is someone like Trump winning that is black. Who would that be? Don King? This takes cultural awareness that Doc doggedly refuses to acknowledge, but you have to understand just how unacceptable that would be to the American public in a way that is clearly not the case for Trump. Another way to think of it is that his vices' drag on his political viability is less pronounced than it would be if he were black. I'd speculate the exception to that would be a black Republican candidate who was willing to validate racist dog whistles and run as a sort of white identity candidate. Even then, that's iffy and I wouldn't bet anything on it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:26 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 11532
If you downplay Trump riding a tide of racial resentment you have to grapple with why hardened white supremacists are completely over the moon with Trump. It's not that he so happens to be their preferred candidate. They react to Trump with orgasmic glee. They're like libertarians if the Sasse/Amash ticket won the presidency. The obvious answer as to why that is is they see Trump as a substantial furthering of their social agenda. You have to at a minimum wonder why that is. Are they completely wrong?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:33 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 12469
Oh, I admit no black man, other than Samuel L. Jackson, would win being a Trump. I also admit that no woman, no other minorities, and not one other white man would either. It'd be nice if you could at least admit that, too.

- Doc

_________________
In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:46 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:26 pm
Posts: 14042
Well, I think another white TV star who got a lot of attention for birtherism, and had Steve Bannon guiding him, could definitely have won.

Trump is pretty savvy in marketing - and he knew to market birtherism, which was just about as blatantly racist as is possible in today's culture.

_________________
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:06 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 12469
beastie wrote:
Well, I think another white TV star who got a lot of attention for birtherism, and had Steve Bannon guiding him, could definitely have won.

Trump is pretty savvy in marketing - and he knew to market birtherism, which was just about as blatantly racist as is possible in today's culture.


I think it was founded in an anti-Islam sentiment.

- Doc

_________________
In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ta-Nehisi Coates spittin' fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:44 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 11532
One of Cam's many foibles is he is incapable of understanding how American Islamophobia is closely tied to race.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 199 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MeDotOrg, The CCC and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group