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 Post subject: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:02 pm 
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MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA

Pretty good article


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:18 pm 
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There has been criticism of neo-Nazis from the right as well, including from respected figures like Noam Chomsky, who called antifa a “major gift to the right” in an interview. In a column for Truthdig, left-wing journalist Chris Hedges wrote that antifa and the alt-right were “mirrors” of each other, both full of people “cast aside by the cruelty of corporate capitalism.” That critique isn’t totally off, in that both nationalist and socialist movements gain a larger foothold when the liberal order has failed, but Hedges went one step further. “[Antifa] fuels the right wing’s paranoid rants about the white race being persecuted and under attack,” he said. “And it strips anti-capitalists of their moral capital.”


That's funny, because many on the Right think the neo-Nazis & White Nationalists (is there even a point to distinguish between the two?) think the latter two movements are huge gifts to the RadLeft.

Bottom line, both movements are the flip side of the same coin if the coin is they don't support a liberal democracy. If anyone on this board thinks for a second the self-described socialists, communists, anti-capitalists, and anti-fascists want a liberal democracy you're 100% deluding yourselves. It's all good and fine to rail against Nazis, because Nazis are the scum of the earth, but you're getting into bed with death and disaster when you make yourself comfortable with the radical political elements we've seen lately.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:28 pm 
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I'm for a mixed economy. Neither purely socialist or purely capitalist. I believe our government is to provide the goods and services that a purely capital economy can not or will not provide. IE; Roads, bridges, waterways, water quality standards, medical care standards, money, banking regulations, military, police functions, and a whole host of other things that an advanced country like ours requires.


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:02 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
I'm for a mixed economy. Neither purely socialist or purely capitalist. I believe our government is to provide the goods and services that a purely capital economy can not or will not provide. IE; Roads, bridges, waterways, water quality standards, medical care standards, money, banking regulations, military, police functions, and a whole host of other things that an advanced country like ours requires.


I'm right there with you. Communist.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Antifa seems fairly courageous to stand up to gun toting Nazis. Most of us would be afraid.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:04 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Antifa seems fairly courageous to stand up to gun toting Nazis. Most of us would be afraid.


Why were they carrying guns?

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:11 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Antifa seems fairly courageous to stand up to gun toting Nazis. Most of us would be afraid.


On the whole, I think history shows it is a good idea to be an anti-fascist, meaning someone who is resolutely opposed to the racist, authoritarian and often militaristic tendencies which typified the historic fascist regimes of Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy.

I think that all decent people are obliged to oppose modern movements akin to fascism by all legitimate political means. This would naturally include appearing on the streets to manifest opposition to public demonstrations by such movements. This involves the risk of being violently attacked by those seeking to intimidate anti-fascists; it is for each person subject to such attack to decide where their rights to legitimate self-defence begins and ends.

I am suspicious of attempts to describe anti-fascist political action by any other name than antifascism. The word is short enough to cause nobody trouble to pronounce or write. Abbreviations such as 'Antifa' serve no purpose other than to attempt to conceal the fact that anti-fascists are, well, opposed to fascism, and to suggest that opposition to fascism is vaguely alien or threatening.

Now why would anybody wish to do that?

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Now why would anybody wish to do that?


Why would self-described socialist, communist, and anti-capitalist members of ANTIFA call it ANTIFA?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
moksha wrote:
Antifa seems fairly courageous to stand up to gun toting Nazis. Most of us would be afraid.


Why were they carrying guns?

- Doc

It's fair to say that there are plenty of folks who will carry for reasons other than actually feeling threatened from anything, as the video linked below demonstrates for one such instance of just 'testing reactions'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N30TagPCNE4


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:04 am 
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The CCC wrote:
I'm for a mixed economy. Neither purely socialist or purely capitalist. I believe our government is to provide the goods and services that a purely capital economy can not or will not provide. IE; Roads, bridges, waterways, water quality standards, medical care standards, money, banking regulations, military, police functions, and a whole host of other things that an advanced country like ours requires.

So, . . . is that your roundabout way of telling us that you give Antifa a "thumbs-up," or your roundabout way of telling us that you give Antifa a "thumbs-down?"

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:04 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I'm for a mixed economy. Neither purely socialist or purely capitalist. I believe our government is to provide the goods and services that a purely capital economy can not or will not provide. IE; Roads, bridges, waterways, water quality standards, medical care standards, money, banking regulations, military, police functions, and a whole host of other things that an advanced country like ours requires.

So, . . . is that your roundabout way of telling us that you give Antifa a "thumbs-up," or your roundabout way of telling us that you give Antifa a "thumbs-down?"


So far as I can see from, e.g., this fairly detailed article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

there is no organisation calling itself 'Antifa' which decides policy in any coherent way, and with a membership who then, by and large, put that policy into action. In modern politics it is problematic enough to ask simplistic questions such as 'Do you give the Democratic Party a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down?', but if there is no clear boundary defining what one is approving of or condemning, the demand for a binary response seems a little less than reasonable.

More reasonably, one might ask whether one approves of people going to a demonstration against a fascist-associated rally, where the fascists in question may be heavily armed, carrying weapons of some kind. Is it all right under such circumstances to wear a helmet and carry a shield (as did some white nationalists in recent incidents), for instance? May one add to that defensive equipment weaponry equal in potential impact with the weaponry carried by the fascist demonstrators, for instance? Or ought one to take the Martin Luther King line, and go defenceless and ready to be beaten up if need be?

Those are all meaningful and well-defined choices where it might be reasonable to ask somebody for a vote one way or another.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:14 am 
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I think anytime someone has to use force or the threat of force in a political discussion then they've lost the argument, and become subject to the law. We have the right to peacefully assemble. There is no such right to unpeacefully assemble.


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:02 am 
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The CCC wrote:
I think anytime someone has to use force or the threat of force in a political discussion then they've lost the argument, and become subject to the law. We have the right to peacefully assemble. There is no such right to unpeacefully assemble.


Oh yes.

But what if a fascist group bearing offensive weapons, and equipped with helmets and shields, decides to assemble its members in a demonstration in my town or college?

Am I then obliged to confront them with no similar defensive equipment? If they attack me, must I submit to that attack without any active resistance?

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Zadok:
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Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:10 am 
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We do have the right of self-defense up to and including the taking of human life if physically attacked with weapons. We, of course, must be well justified by law in doing so.


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:26 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA

Pretty good article

Hey there idiot, ever notice the "paste/link and run" policy on the board?

Are you that hard pressed to ever offer an original thought?

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:28 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I'm for a mixed economy. Neither purely socialist or purely capitalist. I believe our government is to provide the goods and services that a purely capital economy can not or will not provide. IE; Roads, bridges, waterways, water quality standards, medical care standards, money, banking regulations, military, police functions, and a whole host of other things that an advanced country like ours requires.

So, . . . is that your roundabout way of telling us that you give Antifa a "thumbs-up," or your roundabout way of telling us that you give Antifa a "thumbs-down?"

Why u no correct the "paste/link and run" of OP?

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:32 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA

Pretty good article

P.s. OP is just more apologetic cowardice from Kevin Graham, which is absurd given his self imposed isolation and insulation from any of the causes his claims to support and herald. Rural Georgia is not known for its diversity and bigoted liars like Kevin Graham intend to keep it that way.

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:38 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
So, . . . is that your roundabout way of telling us that you give Antifa a "thumbs-up," or your roundabout way of telling us that you give Antifa a "thumbs-down?"


I'm in favor of being against the fascists, but don't appreciate any form of violence. Make the political argument and let me decide for myself.


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:45 am 
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Chap wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I think anytime someone has to use force or the threat of force in a political discussion then they've lost the argument, and become subject to the law. We have the right to peacefully assemble. There is no such right to unpeacefully assemble.


Oh yes.

But what if a fascist group bearing offensive weapons, and equipped with helmets and shields, decides to assemble its members in a demonstration in my town or college?

Am I then obliged to confront them with no similar defensive equipment? If they attack me, must I submit to that attack without any active resistance?


Why would they attack you?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:56 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

Why would they attack you?

- Doc


LOL.

Yes, give the Nazis the benefit of the doubt on the question of violence. Meanwhile, focus your attention on a few women holding pink bats at a funeral intended to fend off would be Fascist disruption, and call them domestic terrorists.

But seriously, who ever heard of Nazis attacking people for no reason?


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 Post subject: Re: MUCH ADO ABOUT ANTIFA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:03 am 
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Not too sure that fascists need much of an excuse to attack others.


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