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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Weirdly Marxist comments by those two


I don't think you show many signs of understanding what Marxism is actually about.

Hint: merely talking about the habitual efforts of large and powerful nations to dominate other, smaller nations under the overall title of 'imperialism' is not really enough to make one Marxist. It just makes one a realist.

NOTE: I don't wish to be seen as making any comment on the specific case of Lopez Rivera. It's just that the habitual misuse of terms such as 'communist' and 'Marxist' in this forum does not help to increase the clarity of discourse.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:59 pm 
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The pardon fits a pattern of Trump consistently feeding his base and doing little to expand it. Trump won Arizona by 3.5%. Romney won by 12%. Trump is not going to win many voters with this pardon. It a dog whistle action designed to appease Nativists. However, the pardon will energize Democrats and discourage moderate Republicans who are put in the position of having to defend it. Trump could potentially flip Arizona with this action.

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Last edited by MeDotOrg on Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:00 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
He's not getting impeached over this. The question is how much that fact erodes the rule of law and our democracy.

Best case scenario is it is treated as a one off ugly moment never to be repeated. Sub has not been issued his talking points yet, but blah blah Mark Rich will probably be included. This is so much worse, but you hope it gets treated like that.

Spare us the hyperbole, there was no more threat to democracy here than the countless pardons issued by Presidents in the past.
This pardon simply is another politically shiny object for childish protestor to chase after. You guys are so scattered and so hysterical it's no wonder that none of you have an actual platform, policy, or candidate that is attractive to the adult population.
Note the reality that most people agree with this situation, don't they?

It is no hyperbole to point out that Donald J. Trump is the most willfully and openly corrupt, ignorant, narcissistic, self serving, incompetent and racist President this nation has ever had (with the possible exception of Andrew Jackson as far as racism is concerned). This becomes more apparent day by day, and even a growing proportion of his most loyal base is becoming aware of that, as reflected in the polling trends. His pardoning of that despicably dishonest and racist sheriff very strongly underscored that assessment. That you still can't or won't see that reveals a great deal about you -- all of it bad.

BTW, your current avatar depicting white noise fits your personality and the quality of your posts perfectly! Was this apparent admission that you are little more than an incorrigible troll deliberate or inadvertent on your part?

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:07 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Weirdly Marxist comments by those two


I don't think you show many signs of understanding what Marxism is actually about.

Hint: merely talking about the habitual efforts of large and powerful nations to dominate other, smaller nations under the overall title of 'imperialism' is not really enough to make one Marxist. It just makes one a realist.

NOTE: I don't wish to be seen as making any comment on the specific case of Lopez Rivera. It's just that the habitual misuse of terms such as 'communist' and 'Marxist' in this forum does not help to increase the clarity of discourse.


I don't think there is any statement made by a Radical Leftist that you wouldn't dismiss as pish posh. The use of 'imperialist' or 'imperialism' isn't a dog whistle to other Leftists, it's a fcking foghorn.

eta: The casual reader should note the hyper-defensiveness of any Leftist who is afraid of being outed as sympathetic to radical Leftist ideology.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Chap wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Weirdly Marxist comments by those two


I don't think you show many signs of understanding what Marxism is actually about.

Hint: merely talking about the habitual efforts of large and powerful nations to dominate other, smaller nations under the overall title of 'imperialism' is not really enough to make one Marxist. It just makes one a realist.

NOTE: I don't wish to be seen as making any comment on the specific case of Lopez Rivera. It's just that the habitual misuse of terms such as 'communist' and 'Marxist' in this forum does not help to increase the clarity of discourse.


I don't think there is any statement made by a Radical Leftist that you wouldn't dismiss as pish posh. The use of 'imperialist' or 'imperialism' isn't a dog whistle to other Leftists, it's a fcking foghorn.

eta: The casual reader should note the hyper-defensiveness of any Leftist who is afraid of being outed as sympathetic to radical Leftist ideology.


Um, I am not actually a 'Leftist', and certainly not a Marxist. I just don't like to see people misusing words in an over-simplified 'four legs good, two legs bad kind of way', like you do with 'communism' and 'Marxism'.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Weirdly Marxist comments by those two


I don't think you show many signs of understanding what Marxism is actually about.

Hint: merely talking about the habitual efforts of large and powerful nations to dominate other, smaller nations under the overall title of 'imperialism' is not really enough to make one Marxist. It just makes one a realist.

Though I often admire and respect what Doc has to say, I have to agree that your assessment of him on this particular issue seems correct. I suspect that few would be more outraged and dismayed by what various communist oligarchies (most notably the former Soviet Union and Maoist China) have done in the name of Marxism than Karl Marx himself. I don't get the impression that all who call themselves Marxists or communists necessarily disapprove of democracy, freedom of speech and other individual rights per se, or advocate despotic and tyrannical forms of government.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Um, I am not actually a 'Leftist', and certainly not a Marxist. I just don't like to see people misusing words in an over-simplified 'four legs good, two legs bad kind of way', like you do with 'communism' and 'Marxism'.

I, for one, never got the impression from anything you said that you are a "leftist" or Marxist. I'm certainly not a Marxist either, but I think it would be dishonest or misinformed and wrong to deny that Marx did make some valid observations and good points about the human condition and the potential abuses and injustices of unbridled, no holds barred capitalism.

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― Harlan Ellison


Last edited by Gunnar on Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:32 pm 
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The Rich pardon was scummy and corrupt. It is also not in the same universe as pardoning a government authority for willfully violating court orders in order to continue to egregiously violating people's civil and human rights. Bringing it up is either an obtuse false equivalence or a deliberate red herring.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Doc probably doesn't recognize it, but he combines a mish-mash of leftwing ideologies into one culture then projects the worst traits of various disparate leftwing groups onto the whole. So he hears some words that conjure up leftwing critique of colonialism and thinks only a Marxist or someone channeling Marxism could say that. Rivera was a Marxist in the sense the North Vietnamese were, but if you were to sympathetically say that Ho Chi Mihn's chief goal was to overthrow Western imperialism in Vietnam, that doesn't make you a Marxist. Doc has developed a shtick that is a somewhat smarter version of what Droopy and Ldsfaqs used to do.

It's also rich coming from a guy who routinely co-opts the language of the alt-right.

Also, equating the commutation of Oscar Lopez Rivera's sentence to the Arpaio pardon is absurd.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
It is no hyperbole to point out that Donald J. Trump is the most willfully and openly corrupt, ignorant, narcissistic, self serving, incompetent and racist President this nation has ever had (with the possible exception of Andrew Jackson as far as racism is concerned).

I've thought a lot about Trump's ranking as a President. I think he is the most narcissistic President by far. As far as the rest, he combines the qualities of corruption, ignorance, narcissism, selfishness, incompetence and racism in a way heretofore unseen in an American President.

I think the thing that makes Trump unique is his obsession with his own image, driven by the greatest sense of insecurity of any President by far. Trump's insecurity is a great predictor of what his actions will be. Trump's overwhelming need in life is to be acknowledged as The Greatest. When the foolish grandiosity of his plans meet reality, he becomes the victim of the swamp, or the deep state, or the fake media, all part of the vast 'other' out there that does not love Donald Trump. And in his obsessive need to denigrate anyone who dares to criticize him, he is probably our most mean-spirited President as well.

To be Presidential is to rise above yourself, to be greater than you were. Donald Trump is the great thing at the center of the Donald Trump Universe. If you are the universe, how can you rise above yourself?

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:35 pm 
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I agree with you completely, MeDorOrg. Heaven forbid that he should last even through his first term, let alone be reelected for a second one! Though a minority of voters approve of him, it is frightening how large that minority is, and frightening how many are too ill-informed to see him for what he is. I still think one of his most important aims in running for and becoming president was desperation to somehow put himself beyond or above the law so that he would be immune from just criminal prosecution and conviction for crimes already committed or planned. I strongly suspect that were he not POTUS he would already be well on his way to prosecution, conviction and well justified imprisonment. Either that, or commitment to a mental hospital.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
Chap wrote:

I don't think you show many signs of understanding what Marxism is actually about.

Hint: merely talking about the habitual efforts of large and powerful nations to dominate other, smaller nations under the overall title of 'imperialism' is not really enough to make one Marxist. It just makes one a realist.

Though I often admire and respect what Doc has to say, I have to agree that your assessment of him on this particular issue seems correct. I suspect that few would be more outraged and dismayed by what various communist oligarchies (most notably the former Soviet Union and Maoist China) have done in the name of Marxism than Karl Marx himself. I don't get the impression that all who call themselves Marxists or communists necessarily disapprove of democracy, freedom of speech and other individual rights per se, or advocate despotic and tyrannical forms of government.


Omg, this is awesome. So No True Marxist! Lolol. Absurdity thy name is MormonDiscussions.com Paradise Forum.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:07 pm 
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I didn't say anything about "no true Marxist", :lol: I am just trying to point out that not all who call themselves Marxists, or were influenced by Marx, agree with the way Lenin and Mao chose to interpret Marx's concepts, nor do they all reject the idea of human rights and individual liberties, such as freedom of speech, religion and of the press and others guaranteed by the U.S. constitution, nor the ideal of democratically elected government. And I reiterate that Marx did rightly point out undeniably valid problems, injustices and outright evil that can potentially result from unbridled, brutal, no holds barred, free market capitalism.

You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing that no true Marxist has any redeeming characteristics whatsoever or favors anything other than authoritative, despotic type governments. I doubt that is true of everyone who has ever read or been influenced by Marx, or even of Marx himself.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:03 am 
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G-man,

That's kind of the absurdity of discussing whether or not a political position is this or that. All politics can be parsed and redefined at will. It's akin to trying to agree on God's nature before a theological debate can happen. That attempt in of itself inevitably goes down the rabbit hole.

For example, if you actually look at the counterprotesters they themselves are a mish mash of competing ideologies. The fact that Anarchists are even allowed to do what they do along side the demonstrating Socialists and Communists is in of itself absurd. Historically the hard Leftists kill the Anarchists off. Historically, they hate each other.

Another example. I think I read on some post on some thread that EAllusion is a Libertarian. I honestly have no idea, nor do I care enough to attempt a search of any sort to figure it out. I'm just not emotionally invested enough to try. However, while reading his responses, at any given time he appears to me to lean very Liberal, or Democrat, or Anarcho-Sindicalist, or Centrist, or globalist. I have no idea what he is politically, but whatever it I'm sure it's nuanced and ultimately would be hard to pin down. It's not his fault he comes across to me as pluralistically political. It could be argued that I'm dumb and misunderstand and conflate various political ideologies and he's always been x-y-z. Whatever the case may be, that's why we tend to just group someone in and tag them with an easily digestible identifier, because no one, not the author nor the reader, has the energy for endless caveats.

Alt-Right.

My newly minted term 'RadLeft'.

Marxist.

Anarchist.

Fascist (talk about a rabbit hole trying reach consensus).

Neo-Con.

Patriot.

Whether the term is a perfect descriptor of a nuanced position or not is irrelevant. It's just setting the stage so we can settle on sides to hash out an opinion on an issue.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:22 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
... we tend to just group someone in and tag them with an easily digestible identifier, because no one, not the author nor the reader, has the energy for endless caveats. ...


Really? Who is this 'we'? You, maybe.

And for 'endless caveats', when used by you, read 'some slight attempt to indicate what you mean by the terms you use, apart from them being bad dudes'.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:48 am 
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Chap wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
... we tend to just group someone in and tag them with an easily digestible identifier, because no one, not the author nor the reader, has the energy for endless caveats. ...


Really? Who is this 'we'? You, maybe.

And for 'endless caveats', when used by you, read 'some slight attempt to indicate what you mean by the terms you use, apart from them being bad dudes'.


I'm sorry. What's your definitive political affiliation and philosophy again?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:54 am 
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... c0a67843ae

That's looking like attempted obstruction of justice too.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:01 am 
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I have socially liberal views and economically conservative ones. My opinions fall right in line with some major figures at CATO and Reason such as Julian Sanchez and Radley Balko. I'm unaffiliated with a political party and my voting decisions are pragmatic. I continue to find it amusing that people sometimes are baffled at how I could be a libertarian and insist, depending on their own political viewpoint, that I'm a staunch liberal / Democrat or, alternatively, a staunch conservative / Republican.

Libertarianism is probably the most misunderstood political label in the public. Using it tends to cloud rather than illuminate, but at the same time, there's no better label to communicate the political positioning it is supposed to describe.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:03 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-asked-sessions-about-closing-case-against-arpaio-an-ally-since-birtherism/2017/08/26/15e5d7b2-8a7f-11e7-a94f-3139abce39f5_story.html?tid=ss_tw-amp&utm_term=.3bc0a67843ae

That's looking like attempting obstruction of justice too.


Serious question, but isn't this impeachable?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/26/why-trumps-pardon-of-joe-arpaio-isnt-like-most-presidential-pardons/?utm_term=.720676f2e1c3

Quote:
Harvard Law professor Noah Feldman, for example, wrote after Trump’s belligerent Phoenix rally speech that such a pardon would represent an “assault on the federal judiciary, the Constitution and the rule of law itself” for which the “remedy is impeachment.”


https://imgur.com/oALt7Pl

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:27 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-asked-sessions-about-closing-case-against-arpaio-an-ally-since-birtherism/2017/08/26/15e5d7b2-8a7f-11e7-a94f-3139abce39f5_story.html?tid=ss_tw-amp&utm_term=.3bc0a67843ae

That's looking like attempting obstruction of justice too.


Serious question, but isn't this impeachable?


Yes. The list of strong items that could be put in an articles of impeachment against Trump is impressively long.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pardon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:25 am 
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And growing. :eek:


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