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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:50 am 
God

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Maxine Waters wrote:
The American voter isn't buying that of BS anymore thankfully.


A significant minority bought your racist BS instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:59 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
Unregistered immigrants are net plus for the economy.


The American voter isn't buying that of BS anymore thankfully.

1) Trump lost the American voters. Remember, he won despite that.

2) Voting for Trump cannot be reduced into a belief regarding the relative costs of immigration.

3) Your position is flat out contradicted by the evidence. It doesn't matter what you want to believe or what voters think.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:09 pm 
Holy Ghost
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Your position is flat out contradicted by the evidence. It doesn't matter what you want to believe or what voters think.


Your evidence goes against common sense. Just admit that you don't care about the people whose wages are decreased nor those whose taxes are increased due to illegal immigration. You don't think their interests matter. Neither do big money Republicans who profit from the cheap labor. That's why your statistics work out the way they do. I'm just glad voters have finally awoken to this problem that I've been hammering for over a decade on this board. We're closer to getting something done about illegal immigration now than we have been since 1962.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:54 am 
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canpakes wrote:
[...] easily defeated vanity wall [...]

About a year-or-so ago, there was an interview with a border patrol officer on one of NPR's spinoff podcasts. I wish I could remember and/or find the interview. There was a lot of really interesting stuff in there that I had never considered (especially moral, and job satisfaction).

One story he told was about when they had finished construction on a new section of an 18 foot wall. The very next day after it was done, it was riddled with 20 foot ladders. After two weeks, the field offices told the agents to just leave the ladders on the ground, and stop bringing them back to the offices because they couldn't store anymore of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:21 am 
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Doctor Steuss wrote:
About a year-or-so ago, there was an interview with a border patrol officer on one of NPR's spinoff podcasts. I wish I could remember and/or find the interview. There was a lot of really interesting stuff in there that I had never considered (especially moral, and job satisfaction).

One story he told was about when they had finished construction on a new section of an 18 foot wall. The very next day after it was done, it was riddled with 20 foot ladders. After two weeks, the field offices told the agents to just leave the ladders on the ground, and stop bringing them back to the offices because they couldn't store anymore of them.


This American Life is the program you are looking for. You can read the transcript here, it is during "Act Three: Law and Border". As you pointed out, it is a pretty interesting piece with discussions of a guy that has worked the border since 2001, well worth the read.

The pertinent comment:

Quote:
Stephanie Foo (This American Life) - Chris doesn't even think a continuous wall is practical. There are walls and fences along 704 miles of the border, including along parts of the Rio Grande right near here, and, Chris says, people find a way around them.

Chris Cabrera (Border Patrol Officer) - We put an 18-foot wall up. The next day, we had 19-foot ladders all over the place. It got so bad. There were just ladders everywhere-- behind the station, stacked up as high as you can reach. After a month, they said stop bringing the damn ladders in.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:34 am 
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So it looks like even Trump supporters on this thread are admitting Mexico is not paying for the wall.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:38 am 
God
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How is a wall going to stop drones from ferrying drugs over it? So if the point is to slow the flow of drugs this seems like a terrible use of taxpayer monies.

But that's not the point. Even Majax admits the point of illegal immigration is to keep wages low, so his own Party has betrayed him and the American people by not holding Big Business to a standard that is fair to the American worker.

We certainly don't have the moral grounds upon which to lay claim to this land, unless you claim that the law of war and subterfuge are perfectly acceptable means to secure space for your racial demographic. If that's the case then Mexicans are morally in the right by immigrating and laying claim to the land much like Anglos did to Texas and the West.

Majax. Help me make sense of your position because I don't see it making any fiscal sense. I don't see your Party changing its tune toward Big Business, especially by electing someone who himself as employed illegals. And I don't see a moral component that gives us the edge.

Make it make sense to me. I give you the floor.

eta: Read this article ( https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/26/busi ... dubai.html ), and then apply it to Mexicans coming to America to work for Big Business. When you read the article ask yourself who is the primary beneficiary of that cheap labor? Here in a America whose interest does it serve to have the equivalent of Pakistani laborer working the fields, building towers, and creating luxury items? Democrats or Republicans? What political party are you empowering?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:55 am 
Holy Ghost
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
How is a wall going to stop drones from ferrying drugs over it? So if the point is to slow the flow of drugs this seems like a terrible use of taxpayer monies.

But that's not the point. Even Majax admits the point of illegal immigration is to keep wages low, so his own Party has betrayed him and the American people by not holding Big Business to a standard that is fair to the American worker.

We certainly don't have the moral grounds upon which to lay claim to this land, unless you claim that the law of war and subterfuge are perfectly acceptable means to secure space for your racial demographic. If that's the case then Mexicans are morally in the right by immigrating and laying claim to the land much like Anglos did to Texas and the West.

Majax. Help me make sense of your position because I don't see it making any fiscal sense. I don't see your Party changing its tune toward Big Business, especially by electing someone who himself as employed illegals. And I don't see a moral component that gives us the edge.

Make it make sense to me. I give you the floor.

eta: Read this article ( https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/26/busi ... dubai.html ), and then apply it to Mexicans coming to America to work for Big Business. When you read the article ask yourself who is the primary beneficiary of that cheap labor? Here in a America whose interest does it serve to have the equivalent of Pakistani laborer working the fields, building towers, and creating luxury items? Democrats or Republicans? What political party are you empowering?

- Doc


I will. I'm not running. Just busy providing for a family and being a new Dad. Medicaids are rolling in and they seem to love my Spanish so admittedly it's not me personally who is hurting from illegal immigration.

But for semi skilled construction workers, students who once worked summer jobs it's a different story.

If a pregnant foreign woman finds her way to a US emergency room and has a baby who is by current interpretation of the law a US citizen, and that child qualifies for Medicaid, disability, bused from Mexico each day to attend pubic school, gets in state tuition, food stamps, etc. Where is the justice in that and how is that a net benefit to the US taxpayer?

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“There were mothers who took this [Rodney King LA riots] as an opportunity to take some milk, to take some bread, to take some shoes ... They are not crooks.”

This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:03 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
I will. I'm not running. Just busy providing for a family and being a new Dad. Medicaids are rolling in and they seem to love my Spanish so admittedly it's not me personally who is hurting from illegal immigration.

But for semi skilled construction workers, students who once worked summer jobs it's a different story.

If a pregnant foreign woman finds her way to a US emergency room and has a baby who is by current interpretation of the law a US citizen, and that child qualifies for Medicaid, disability, bused from Mexico each day to attend pubic school, gets in state tuition, food stamps, etc. Where is the justice in that and how is that a net benefit to the US taxpayer?


Hey, man. I'm Making America Great Again today and I'm taking the time to discuss these issues because I care about the approximately zero people whose minds will be changed.

Your argument actually doesn't make any sense. Thanks to the people giving you business, and to all the people employed by that lady, the medical workers, the bus drivers, the school administrators, the Border Patrol officers, the food industry, the welfare distributors it looks like a lot of people are getting jobs based off her existence.

Those are American workers that wouldn't have a job, and you, in fact, would take a significant hit on your ability to provide for your family if, as you admit, that sweet socialized program didn't exist.

Are you arguing that, in fact, the average citizen does, indeed, benefit from illegal immigration? I'm a bit confused by your statement.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Not everyone can bill the government for their services. That's why I said me personally. If unemployment were great for the economy, why don't we all get on it?

Illegal immigration devalues American citizenship. Can you not imagine the chaos that would result from unrestrained immigration? Have you ever been south of the border? What did it look like to you?

Importing poverty makes the wagon extra heavy. There needs to be a limit on immigration and American citizens have every right to set that limit through democratic law.

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“There were mothers who took this [Rodney King LA riots] as an opportunity to take some milk, to take some bread, to take some shoes ... They are not crooks.”

This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Not everyone can bill the government for their services. That's why I said me personally. If unemployment were great for the economy, why don't we all get on it?

Illegal immigration devalues American citizenship. Can you not imagine the chaos that would result from unrestrained immigration? Have you ever been south of the border? What did it look like to you?

Importing poverty makes the wagon extra heavy. There needs to be a limit on immigration and American citizens have every right to set that limit through democratic law.


Well, we don't all get in on perpetual unemployment because it has an end game that results in poverty. But, sure, it could be argued the unemployed, transient, homeless, and various others who either by choice or by circumstance find themselves with their hands out begging for free stuff does create a work sector.

I'd argue we don't have unrestrained immigration. I'm not sure why you even say that. We have ICE, a Border Patrol, vetting, so on and so forth. I think the illegals that play the weird game we've set up, thanks to Republicans who like them for their labor and Democrats who like them for their votes, aren't getting here unrestrained. The ones that are allowed to remain, the vast majority in fact, work. We subsidized their social programs because your Party won't register them and have them paying taxes.

And yes. I've been south of the border many, many times. It's America's future if we don't get a handle on our wealth inequality.

So again. Help me make sense of your position because you're a direct beneficiary of the system, you vote for people who don't want to change it (that wall isn't getting built), and I don't see a solution coming from you that makes fiscal sense. A physical wall literally isn't going to change a thing. So help me out here.

- Doc

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Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:46 pm 
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I don't think you can say cheap immigrant labor benefits any particular party, because corporations are apolitical and the cheap prices fall to the consumers (everyone). Democrats are the ones championing the immigrant at the moment, but not out of the goodness of their hearts to provide them better lives. No, they want the votes. Democrats are and have been, perfectly willing (just like the Republicans) to let immigrants work in the fields and take all the menial labor jobs they want. There has been zero appetite to upset this status quo from either party.

Personally, I'd rather pay more for my produce and hotel room if it meant getting rid of immigrant labor and making our own unemployed United States citizens work those jobs.

Anecdotal side note - My boss (the CFO) is a liberal Democrat. Voted for Obama, loves the Clintons, hates Trump, the whole nine yards. But when it comes to making decisions for the company he works for, he is as fiscally conservative as you can get. When it comes to Capitalism, democrats in big business make the same decisions as the guys on the right. I see this over and over again in business. Its sort of trendy now to be rich and a Democrat in professional circles. But when it comes down to it, they behave the same as those on the right.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:52 pm 
God

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Quote:
Democrats are the ones championing the immigrant at the moment, but not out of the goodness of their hearts to provide them better lives. No, they want the votes.


Illegal immigrants don't vote d***a**.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Black Moclips wrote:
corporations are apolitical


I wouldn't even know where to begin with that one. Phew.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:10 pm 
God

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Quote:
Personally, I'd rather pay more for my produce and hotel room if it meant getting rid of immigrant labor and making our own unemployed United States citizens work those jobs.


Sure you would. Problem being, illegal immigrants are doing jobs Americans won't do. That's just a proven fact.

And illegal immigrants aren't getting jobs because they're all making below minimum wage. That's myth. I know from first hand experience. In fact, I just paid a guy from Ecuador, whom I strongly suspect is an illegal immigrant, just under $9,000 for work he's been doing to finish our basement. All together he's probably worked 15 days and he works 10 hours each. That's roughly $60/hr. The estimates for the same jobs I got here from local contractors were significantly higher and they assured me it would require multiple workers and much longer to complete.

Meanwhile, I have redneck cousins an hour away in Alabama who didn't take the job because they didn't want to drive up here. We even offered to let them stay with us and they work at their own leisure for however long it took. But nope, they'd rather sit around and smoke cigarettes in their trailers all day and dream of other ways of paying their child support.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:16 pm 
Stake High Council
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Quote:
Democrats are the ones championing the immigrant at the moment, but not out of the goodness of their hearts to provide them better lives. No, they want the votes.


Illegal immigrants don't vote d***a**.


We know some of them do, just not exactly how many. And its more of a long term play for democrats anyway, as the children they have here gain citizenship, their families grow, etc. Most Latinos vote democrat. NPR reported that nationwide 66% of latino voters voted democrat in the last election.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Black Moclips wrote:
corporations are apolitical


I wouldn't even know where to begin with that one. Phew.

- Doc


Really? You mean their are Republican businesses and Democratic businesses that follow a different set of capitalistic ideologies? I don't think so. There are all sorts of high profile liberal CEO's that vote for and donate to liberals personally, yet their companies are just as capitalistic as they can be. They have to be. They have shareholders and investors they have to report to. You think any of them have a problem with cheap labor? You think any of them pay extra in taxes to help fund all the social programs? Or pay out of market wages and benefits to low end workers just so they can have a living wage? LOL. Nope. They all bow to the bottom line and whatever it takes (and is legal) to get them there.

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:51 pm 
God
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Mr. Clips,

I'm not really sure where you're coming from, so I'll assume we're viewing the question differently. I just put to use my Kevin Graham dick ass googling skills and came up with this:

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

If you click on the link it gives you the top 50 corporations reference donations to political parties. This basically means that they're very political because they're promoting their interests by aligning themselves with and involving themselves in the political machine.

I again put to use my Kevin Graham locked-on-cock googling skills and type in:

"Top Democrat Corporations"

Just to tackle it from your, I guess, angle. It came up with:

Quote:
Here’s A List of Major Corporations Donating To Support Their Political Party


https://magicbaltimore.com/3327814/here ... cal-party/

Basically using my Kevin Graham sloppy seconds googling skills I could provide you with hundreds of links demonstrating that corporations are very political, are very politically involved, and really drive home the point that 'everything is politics'.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:00 pm 
Holy Ghost
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Quote:
Personally, I'd rather pay more for my produce and hotel room if it meant getting rid of immigrant labor and making our own unemployed United States citizens work those jobs.


Exactly. It seems someone understands the economics of open borders mixed with socialism on this board.

Quote:
Anecdotal side note - My boss (the CFO) is a liberal Democrat. Voted for Obama, loves the Clintons, hates Trump, the whole nine yards. But when it comes to making decisions for the company he works for, he is as fiscally conservative as you can get. When it comes to Capitalism, democrats in big business make the same decisions as the guys on the right. I see this over and over again in business. Its sort of trendy now to be rich and a Democrat in professional circles. But when it comes down to it, they behave the same as those on the right.


Amen again. I'm so glad I'm independent now and not working for guys like this anymore.

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“There were mothers who took this [Rodney King LA riots] as an opportunity to take some milk, to take some bread, to take some shoes ... They are not crooks.”

This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.


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 Post subject: Re: Shut Down U.S. Govt if Wall not payed for????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:26 pm 
Holy Ghost
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Quote:
So again. Help me make sense of your position because you're a direct beneficiary of the system, you vote for people who don't want to change it (that wall isn't getting built), and I don't see a solution coming from you that makes fiscal sense. A physical wall literally isn't going to change a thing. So help me out here.


We're speaking from the interest of the citizen and taxpayer. Illegal immigration isn't a personal grievance of mine anymore because I've found a way to make money off of it finally.

What is this pregnant woman who shows up in a US emergency room contributing to the economy? What are the services she demands costing the taxpayer over the first 18 years of this child's life? What would it cost if 30% of Latin American women started pulling this trick and what incentive do they have not to do this, how about 80%? Why are we the ones capable of paying this when we're currently $21 trillion in debt? I don't understand your math. How is this a net benefit to the taxpayer? Do politicians give two bits about the interests of the taxpayer?

As long as she makes it to a US emergency room under the Democrats, we're on the hook for the rest of these kids lives. Whatever happened to the parents who decided to make these kids being responsible for providing for them? Locks on your doors don't stop every thief. A wall won't solve everything but it's a good first step.

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“There were mothers who took this [Rodney King LA riots] as an opportunity to take some milk, to take some bread, to take some shoes ... They are not crooks.”

This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:32 pm 
God
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Kevin Graham wrote:

Illegal immigrants don't vote d***a**.

CFR

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