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 Post subject: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:27 pm 
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A man who worked for an Electrical Company in San Francisco was scheduled to speak at the Unite The Right rally in Charlottesville. Johnny Raymondetta, aka Johnny Monoxide, has a right wing blog and a lovely bio page at the Southern Poverty Law Center web site.

After word of his scheduled speech at the rally became public, Johnny's employer started getting death threats. Rosendin Electric subsequently fired Johnny, stating only that his actions did not match their policies.

Here's a bit of the response from the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers:

Quote:
The views and opinions expressed by insider wireman electrician and International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local Union No. 6 member, John Ramondetta, are solely his own and do not reflect the opinions of IBEW Local Union No. 6 or its parent organization the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers,” read the statement issued by the Union’s Business Manager and Financial Secretary John J. Doherty.

However, the released statement also noted that the union recognizes “that the Constitution of the United States allows him to express these views and opinions provided that he does so in accordance with the law” and that the union’s authorities to discipline or hold Ramondetta accountable did not “extend to the expression of his views and opinions as an individual outside of the workplace.”


I see the point of those who would like to see him fired. If we live in a society where public displays of racism make you a pariah within the larger community, you pay a terrible economic price for the expression of your views.

But as repugnant as I find the views of Johnny Monoxide, I still feel like we are losing something here. I wonder if we are stamping out the problem or driving it deep underground. What is the greater danger? The suppression of freedom of speech? I think of this suppression as being a two-edged sword. Imagine a conservative southern town where a local citizen is scheduled to speak at a Pro Choice rally. What happens if the electric company in that town begins to get death threats for employing a Pro Choice person?

Or is the greater danger the specific nature of the speech itself. Do we need to carve out exceptions to freedom of speech for hate speech? Other countries have done so.

So I'm not really formulating an answer here. I'm inviting discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:48 pm 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
I wonder if we are stamping out the problem or driving it deep underground.


Good grief you are reading my mind today with that! That's exactly what I've been looking for the right open door to express on the existing threads.

If I could change things, I would completely wipe out these hate groups, but you can't. Any attempt to wipe them out will only drive them underground where they'd likely spill out in terrorist-like attacks. I do consider the car incident in Virginia to be a terrorist attack however, that was on the part of a lone diagnosed un-medicated schizophrenic assailant who got whipped up into a frenzy. What would happen, I think, if these groups were to be driven underground would be strategically, and organized acts of domestic terrorism.

Look, when you think about it, they were already driven underground to a certain degree by the civil rights movement and we hope, changes in societal attitudes and views. These groups still existed, racism still existed until, in my view, Trump's campaign rhetoric and comments about Mexicans, immigrants and encouraging violence during his speeches. I'll never forget one comment were there were protestors at his rally and he said to the effect "You know what we would have done in the old days right?" I knew without question that if he answered his own question, he would have said, "We would have kicked their ass".

There is no doubt in my mind that that's exactly how these hate groups got it in their head that yeah, "Our time is now!" and that's why we're seeing these hateful outbursts and terrible acts of violence right now, because they believe that Trump himself signed off on the permission slip. That is something I can't forgive him for because even this not-so-brainiac Jersey Girl (who has some degree of street smarts) knew what he was implying and god knows, so did the hate groups and why there is this resurgence of racism.

Because it never left to start with.

The problem with racism (besides the fact that it's unholy and unrighteous to begin with) is that it makes no logical sense in terms of our collective survival. What's good for the greater good is unity, not division. What's good for progress and innovation is a large swath of contributors from all walks. What's good for the positive development of this country financially, socially, politically, environmentally, is all hands working. What's best is collaboration not division.

Racism isn't smart.

But back to your thoughts, yes, it's better to let them demonstrate legally and peacefully (can they even do that?) but no, I don't think it's smart to give them much air time or the general time of day. This is one of the reasons that I think the counter-protestors in Virginia would have done better to stay in their lane and do their thing without confrontation.

ETA: The one good thing that has come from the Virginia riots is that it forced the hand of our politicians, business community, and military to speak out against racism and launch a kind of protest of their own.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:36 am 
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I'll defend to the death anyone's right to peacefully make a fool out of themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:48 pm 
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MeDotOrg You're a fair minded person grounded in principle. Most on your side are not.

Jersey Girl Obama gave the same license to groups like Black Lives Matter. Much of the Ferguson riots were due to him and Eric Holder. Obama could have brought racial unification but due to his angry, hypersensitive, and overly demanding leftist stances where he rushed to judgment and was wrong four times,

Cambridge Police
Trayvon Martin
Ferguson Missouri
Baltimore riots over Freddy Gray

We ended Obama's 8 years more racially charged and divided than ever.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:05 am 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
A man who worked for an Electrical Company in San Francisco was scheduled to speak at the Unite The Right rally in Charlottesville. Johnny Raymondetta, aka Johnny Monoxide, has a right wing blog and a lovely bio page at the Southern Poverty Law Center web site.

After word of his scheduled speech at the rally became public, Johnny's employer started getting death threats. Rosendin Electric subsequently fired Johnny, stating only that his actions did not match their policies.

Here's a bit of the response from the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers:

Quote:
The views and opinions expressed by insider wireman electrician and International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local Union No. 6 member, John Ramondetta, are solely his own and do not reflect the opinions of IBEW Local Union No. 6 or its parent organization the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers,” read the statement issued by the Union’s Business Manager and Financial Secretary John J. Doherty.

However, the released statement also noted that the union recognizes “that the Constitution of the United States allows him to express these views and opinions provided that he does so in accordance with the law” and that the union’s authorities to discipline or hold Ramondetta accountable did not “extend to the expression of his views and opinions as an individual outside of the workplace.”


I see the point of those who would like to see him fired. If we live in a society where public displays of racism make you a pariah within the larger community, you pay a terrible economic price for the expression of your views.

But as repugnant as I find the views of Johnny Monoxide, I still feel like we are losing something here. I wonder if we are stamping out the problem or driving it deep underground. What is the greater danger? The suppression of freedom of speech? I think of this suppression as being a two-edged sword. Imagine a conservative southern town where a local citizen is scheduled to speak at a Pro Choice rally. What happens if the electric company in that town begins to get death threats for employing a Pro Choice person?

Or is the greater danger the specific nature of the speech itself. Do we need to carve out exceptions to freedom of speech for hate speech? Other countries have done so.

So I'm not really formulating an answer here. I'm inviting discussion.

Timely OP, MeDotOrg, and well stated as always.

I heard a story on NPR on Friday while driving into work that left me perplexed. It was reporting on a previously organized rally to take place in Boston, and on both the concern regarding speakers who had ties to the alt-right and the movement to protest the rally. The rally itself was organized back in July by a group called the Boston Free Speech Coalition who apparently are a group of largely libertarian and conservatives who organized following the high profile protests of controversial speakers at college campuses such as at Berkeley early this year.

As I listened to the report, I wondered if I was the only person who heard it and cringed every time the reporter mentioned protesting the free speech rally? The reporter seemed oblivious to this, taking the direction that the rally was a group of alt-right Nazis, there was a large movement to protest the rally, and the City of Boston was taking many measures to prevent another Charlottesville from occurring.

I thought about this and waited to see if there was news on Saturday when the event occurred. Here are a couple of stories -

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/thousa ... smsnnews11

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/ ... story.html

Three quotes jumped out at me. From the first link:

Organizers of Saturday's rally in Boston have denounced the white supremacist message and violence of Charlottesville and said their event would be peaceful.

"The point of this is to have political speech from across the spectrum, conservative, libertarian, centrist," said Chris Hood, an 18-year-old Boston resident who stood among a crowd of a few dozen people who planned to join the Free Speech rally. "This is not about Nazis. If there were Nazis here, I'd be protesting against them."


In contrast, from the same report:

"Ignoring a problem has never solved it," Cannon said in a phone interview. "We cannot continue to ignore racism."

And from the second link:

Iván Espinoza-Madrigal, executive director for the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights and Economic Justice, said the coalition is naïve to think that the issue is about the right to free speech if the expression at their rally dissolves into bigotry and violence.

“You have the right to speak. You don’t have the right to threaten or intimidate people,’’ he said. “You don’t have a right to promote racial violence.”


Boston Commons has a unique place in our democracy. It is the first place set aside for all members of the public back in 1634 and is considered the first park in the nation. It represents a democratic ideal that no matter who one is, how wealthy they are, what they do for a living, there are certain public goods and services that should be available to all because there is benefit to the individuals as well as society in having these. It's truly at the heart of what defines our way of doing things as a democracy, more so than how we vote or our system of republican government. It's our public places, schools, libraries, roads, access to information, and above all access to common rights such as that of peaceful assembly and the right to speech.

The second quote is dead wrong in the assumption that everything needs to be actively opposed with which one disagrees, IMO. There is no way in a pluralistic society that we should have any expectation that people aren't able to have views with which we disagree. There are a plurality of things we do have to learn to ignore with which we may disagree. We have to have some expectation that others will believe and publicly say things that we find reprehensible. And we can, and in many cases, ought to speak out with counter speech. By that, though, I don't think we are engaging well when we consider spraying people with mace or throwing urine on cops as our civic duty to combat racism. And every expression that doesn't align with one's own particular view isn't necessarily Nazism. I'm not a fan of Trump. At all. And frankly I wish he'd not participate in the conversation right now because things are getting too emotional to allow us to approach the questions more rationally. But we need to be able to question if there are bad players on both sides in order to improve how one goes about striving for a better world for all.

The third quote struck me as sadly ironic as it was the counter-protestors who were doing the threatening, the intimidating. And all in the name of protesting a free speech rally in Boston Commons.

There are times I really wonder how the future will judge us. This is one of those times I have zero insight into, but worry it won't be charitably.

People like Ajax let their basest of emotions guide their thinking, feeding fear and hate. And they encourage others to share in these base emotional responses to our complex world. I hate to say it, but they aren't the only ones. The best among us are cognizant of the values that were the foundation of our society. It was the appeal to these values that made the civil rights movement successful, in large part by embracing them more fully than those they opposed in their non-violent protests and resolve. I think that fighting racism, fear, hate can only be done in this way and be successful.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:25 am 
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To build on the above:

We need to be conscientious of our own behaviors and pause at times to take stock. Labeling someone a particular race is a shorthand for ignoring them as individuals while making it easier to excuse all manner of terrible behaviors. But what about labeling people Nazis? Is there any other label one could apply in the US and be more easily excused for behaviors against it one might not otherwise tolerate or view as vile hateful action?

This seems to be akin to what Nietzsche meant about staring into the abyss too long. Hating Nazis is still hate. We should be concerned that we are willing to justify it. Should hate and racism be opposed? Absolutely, but in the name OF something of value rather than in the name AGAINST something. Protest for equality, for a colorblind society, for a world where income inequality is understood as having dire consequences for democracy, for responsible resource use, for whatever. This movement in social media and on the streets of being AGAINST, AGAINST, AGAINST is scary precisely because it's at the root of the thing we recognize as worthy of opposition. But we need to know what it is we stand for. I'm for freedom of speech, of the right to peaceably assemble, and for a better society that understands the fight to know ones self is the war we all should fight daily, and when we fail to take up arms in that fight we lose something meaningful.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:35 am 
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I think it is perfectly acceptable to hate NAZIS. Apparently so did millions of WW2 America, British, and French soldiers. I feel sorry for the German people that endured them, and those alive today.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:38 am 
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The CCC wrote:
I think it is perfectly acceptable to hate NAZIS. Apparently so did millions of WW2 America, British, and French soldiers. I feel sorry for the German people that endured them, and those alive today.

We fought a war against the nations of Germany, Japan and Italy who were governed by nationalists and fascists. War is war. It's the worst of all human endeavors though I think it is a necessary one at times.

This isn't one of those times.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:46 am 
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To add, I served an LDS mission to Switzerland which mission included part of German and Austria. We all had to spend part of our missions in one or the other country as Switzerland did not allow missionaries to get visas for more than 18 months. I've heard they don't give visas to North American missionaries at all now. Switzerland.

Anyway. While in Germany at the end of serving, the ward we were assigned to had a fairly large number of members who were alive during WWII including veterans, people who endured our bombing campaigns, women who were raped when the part of the country was occupied by Allied forces. The ward mission leader was wounded by a bomb while assigned as a tank driver and credited surviving the war with his being in the hospital recovering for most of the end of the war. His wife was rather candid about the sentiment of the time and that they were a nation at war with other nations. You can't separate out Germany from the war and believe we only fought Nazis.

The Nazis came to power because of conditions not that different from those we face today. The use of hate as a propaganda tool requires people being in a condition where that is easier to plant in their hearts.

Hate is hate, CCC. It's not ok to hate Nazis. I oppose what they stand for. I can't believe in hating them.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:51 am 
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Well, you also have bleed over to innocent people when:

http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechcons ... r-as-a-rac

they're are wrongly accused of a social 'crime' and their lives and livelihood are put at risk. Do we really want a world where mob justice rules the day?

Seriously. What's next? When you don't believe is Universal Basic Income are you going to 'outed' to the world and be attacked and harassed? Anti-abortion the same? You don't like Gays? You think fat chicks should lose weight? You are against sexual promiscuity?

Where's the line? Because from where I'm seeing it we're on a super ____ ing slippery slope and we're sliding to some real bull ____ when stuff like the linked and OP is happening.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:58 am 
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Germany lost the war. NAZISM is still alive and well in America. Just as the CSA lost the war, and racism is alive and well in America. There is no one alive today that fought in the US Civil War, and the WW2 generation is dying off fast. It is truly deplorable that there are still some Americans that lionize either/both causes.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:01 pm 
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This was stabbed because he had a normal neo-Nazi haircut:

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/colorado-m ... 46326.html

Quote:
A man named Joshua Witt has had firsthand experience with just how far that haircut’s association with Nazis has come. Witt took to social media this week to share the bloody results.

“Sooooooo apparently I look like a neo-nazi and got stabbed for it … luckily I put my hands up to stop it so he only stabbed my hand…. please keep in mind there was no conversation between me and this dude I was literally just getting out of my car”


And people wonder why I'm leery of the extreme-Left...

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:13 pm 
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[quote="honorentheos"]

Of course hate is hate. I don't hate the German people. I speak the modified version of two Germanic languages Anglo-Saxon now called English. The NAZIS used and abused the German people deplorably.
"Don't be a Sucker" SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
This was stabbed because he had a normal neo-Nazi haircut:

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/colorado-m ... 46326.html

Quote:
A man named Joshua Witt has had firsthand experience with just how far that haircut’s association with Nazis has come. Witt took to social media this week to share the bloody results.

“Sooooooo apparently I look like a neo-nazi and got stabbed for it … luckily I put my hands up to stop it so he only stabbed my hand…. please keep in mind there was no conversation between me and this dude I was literally just getting out of my car”


And people wonder why I'm leery of the extreme-Left...

- Doc


I'm leery of anyone who stabs someone else regardless of their political ideology.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:27 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
I'm leery of anyone who stabs someone else regardless of their political ideology.


I'm leery of anyone who gives money to a hate church who actively discriminates against homosexuals and their children.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
And people wonder why I'm leery of the extreme-Left...

- Doc


And this is what I don't understand. Why did people go nuts when Trump posed a question using the term "alt-left"? Is it because they see that as blame shifting (blame sharing?) or they think that it doesn't exist?

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Is this a pic of neo-Nazi Aaron Carter?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OBvh1jd0z20/maxresdefault.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Look at this damn Neo-Nazi Colin Farrell.

Image

Btw, how do Neo-Nazi women wear their hair?

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Let's hope this US Marine doesn't get his hands stabbed walking through the Walmart parking lot or something.

Image


ETA: Don't worry I won't binge post any more pics and mess up the thread. I'm so happy I can live off the beaten path and away from the heap of ignorance that probably surrounds me in town.

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Last edited by Jersey Girl on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:42 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
honorentheos wrote:

Of course hate is hate. I don't hate the German people. I speak the modified version of two Germanic languages Anglo-Saxon now called English. The NAZIS used and abused the German people deplorably.
"Don't be a Sucker" SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk

I saw that a long time ago, CCC. You'll notice the absence of "Punch a Nazi" ethic in it, too. Don't be a sucker, indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm not sure how I feel about this
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:43 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
I'm leery of anyone who stabs someone else regardless of their political ideology.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Connect the dots as to what gets a person to that place and we'll call that progress.

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