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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:58 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
Once equal situation between a same-sex couple and a heterosexual couple was established, the procreation argument had to either be leveled (i.e. - no heterosexual marriages where procreation was not possible) or elevated (marriage allowed without prejudice regarding the ability to biologically procreate).

Again, subby, you don't seem to really get it. You keep throwing out examples that lack equal situation with heterosexual couples. At the end of the day, it will come down to this: You are prejudiced towards homosexuality and simply deny a person who is LGBT is equally situated with a straight person. Have fun with that. It doesn't really matter to the rest of us.

I was not making the reproduction argument against SSM you were. I do not think that procreation is, was, or should be a requirement for marriage. Lack of procreation is merely an indicator of the defective quality of being homosexual. Psychological defects are reasonably grounds for being unqualified for a marriage license.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:10 am 
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subgenius wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
Once equal situation between a same-sex couple and a heterosexual couple was established, the procreation argument had to either be leveled (i.e. - no heterosexual marriages where procreation was not possible) or elevated (marriage allowed without prejudice regarding the ability to biologically procreate).

Again, subby, you don't seem to really get it. You keep throwing out examples that lack equal situation with heterosexual couples. At the end of the day, it will come down to this: You are prejudiced towards homosexuality and simply deny a person who is LGBT is equally situated with a straight person. Have fun with that. It doesn't really matter to the rest of us.

I was not making the reproduction argument against SSM you were. I do not think that procreation is, was, or should be a requirement for marriage. Lack of procreation is merely an indicator of the defective quality of being homosexual. Psychological defects are reasonably grounds for being unqualified for a marriage license.

And now you're making ____ up again. You brought up defects, you claimed LGBT persons have one as again stated in your post above, and you are claiming it should disqualify someone from marriage. I've made one argument only. Equal protection. Oh, two I guess. That you keep making ____ up.

Again, have fun with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:56 pm 
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A Pennsylvania barbershop has been fined $750 for refusing to cut a woman's hair in March.

Barbiere in Washington advertises itself as a high-end gentlemen's barbershop that 'strives to keep traditional barbering techniques' and also offers complimentary beers and spirits to its patrons

The barbershop, which has a 'level of comfort and intimacy that is unattainable in any chain salon', was fined by the state's Bureau of Professional and Occupational Affairs for gender discrimination.

- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -hair.html -

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:29 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Oh, a contract...that explains why Obama was all about that "#lovewins"...because nothing says love like a Supreme Court ruling and a contract.

But its cute how marriage is what you say it is...but wait.... its not just between two people...its between two qualified people (e.g. two adults, two adults who are not parent and child, two adults who are not parent and child and are not mentally incompetent, two adults who are not parent and child and are not mentally incompetent and are not married to other people......and on and on...qualifications)
But hey, your naïve oversimplification and armchair activism is good enough.

Gay people can't have children together...impossible for a gay man and another gay man to combine their gametes and form an zygote, embryo, etc...
Sure they can adopt or involve a surrogate...but that is just "one gay person" having a child and it still confirms the notion that wanting to be heterosexual is what is normal....it is scientifically impossible to form a human zygote with same sex gametes.

Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:
It is a contract between two people, and the government has no right to discriminate in such a manner.

Apparently the government disagrees with you, they already discriminate against children getting married, against threesomes getting married, against fathers and daughters getting married...etc.
Your "no right to discriminate" argument does not agree with reality.

Good points, Subgenius.

If we were to go by the founders, we'd acknowledge that "rights" were not given by government, but endowed by their creator.
And how is every person created? By a mother and father.
Although obviously, having children is not a requirement for marriage, marriage's primary role in society is to protect the society that emerges - which is always through the union of a sperm and an egg (from a man and a woman).

Also, there's a tendency to shoot down a woman for standing for what she believes - to call her beliefs ignorant, biased etc.
Yet, how many people who support homosexual "marriage" and denying children a mother or father, have put their biases aside long enough to explore the statistical consequences of homosexual practices through US CDC STDS, AIDS/HIV, mental illness and consequences of anal sex?
Nobody likes truths that are inconvenient to their biases.


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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:41 am 
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Amore wrote:
Good points, Subgenius.

If we were to go by the founders, we'd acknowledge that "rights" were not given by government, but endowed by their creator.
And how is every person created? By a mother and father.
Although obviously, having children is not a requirement for marriage, marriage's primary role in society is to protect the society that emerges - which is always through the union of a sperm and an egg (from a man and a woman).

Also, there's a tendency to shoot down a woman for standing for what she believes - to call her beliefs ignorant, biased etc.
Yet, how many people who support homosexual "marriage" and denying children a mother or father, have put their biases aside long enough to explore the statistical consequences of homosexual practices through US CDC STDS, AIDS/HIV, mental illness and consequences of anal sex?
Nobody likes truths that are inconvenient to their biases.


It's so cute when the board homophobes get all kissy kissy with each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:26 am 
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I love this satirical spoof in Runtu's blog:
Quote:
Arkansas DMV Clerk Stands Up for Religious Freedom
September 4, 2015
Salt Lick, Arkansas (URP)

Tyson County DMV clerk Jason Durgess is garnering praise from around the country for his principled defense of his religious rights. Durgess, a member of the Apostolic Regeneration Brethren Church, announced Thursday that, in keeping with his religious beliefs, he could no longer in good conscience issue driver’s licenses to female residents.

“The scriptures are clear,” Durgess said today while sitting at his closed clerk’s station. “‘Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.’ I didn’t make that up. Jesus said it, and Reverend Gary says I can’t do anything that undermines the authority of the man, who is ‘the saviour of the body.'”

When applicants complained that Durgess was approving licenses only for men, he had a change of heart. “I knew I needed to be just and fair, and it wasn’t right to single out women.” Accordingly, Durgess decided to refuse to issue licenses to anyone, male or female.

“I just feel like my right to freedom of religion needs to be respected, and I shouldn’t be forced to do things that the Bible says are wrong.”

Supervisors at the DMV tried to accommodate Durgess by assigning him to the vehicle registration department, but he quickly found his conscience wouldn’t allow him to register vehicles that might be driven by women. “This is a life-or-death matter for me. I cannot condone or approve of behavior that goes against the central teachings of the gospel.”

When supervisors told Durgess he had to resume issuing licenses or be fired, he called on the Libertas Counsel, an organization that supports religious freedom for all.

“When Jason called us, I was shocked,” said Cleophas Stemmelbow, lead counsel at Libertas. “It’s appalling that in the 21st century we are threatening people’s livelihoods if they don’t violate their most cherished religious beliefs. This isn’t Nazi Germany or Massachusetts. This is America, and this sort of thing isn’t supposed to happen here!”

Fearing a lawsuit, supervisors agreed to allow Durgess to continue his employment without any responsibilities. “Yeah, he just sits there playing games on his iPhone all day, but what are we supposed to do?”

As lines grew longer, patron tempers grew shorter. “I don’t know what this guy’s problem is,” said an exasperated Tiffany Meadows, who was trying to calm a fussy infant while waiting in line. “I’ve been here almost 2 hours, and that guy’s just sitting there on his butt, doing nothing.”

“Look,” Durgess said, looking up from Angry Birds, “if you are that desperate, go to another clerk or another county, and they’ll fix you up just fine.”

Local pastor Robert McDowell approached Durgess’s clerk station while his wife, Barbara McDowell, recorded the conversation on her phone. “Son, you have a legal responsibility to issue me a driver’s license,” said an obviously irritated McDowell. “I and every other taxpayer in this county are paying your salary. You can’t just sit there. Do you really want us to beg you? This is just humiliating!”

Durgess dismissed the complaints. “These are just whiners who are looking for attention. They claim they’re humiliated, but it’s all fake. If they were really humiliated, they wouldn’t have recorded anything and published it. Get real. They’re just some angry losers who want to sin.”

As more people filed past Durgess’s station, he smiled wistfully and said he felt proud to stand up for the values that have made this country great. “I’ve had a few phone calls from Republican presidential candidates, and there’s even talk of a Lifetime movie. Life is good when you trust in the Lord.”

At least, I think it was a spoof. I've seen and heard people express attitudes nearly as unreasonable (like Kim Davis for example). It really brought the absurdity of her position into sharp relief. I also enjoyed reading some of the comments to that entry in his blog.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:36 am 
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Brad Hudson wrote:
Amore wrote:
Good points, Subgenius.

It's so cute when the board homophobes get all kissy kissy with each other.

#749 of 750 Hungarian proverbs:
Megtalálta zsák a foltját.
The sack has found its patch.
('People of the same similar ideas have found each other.')

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:06 am 
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Brad Hudson wrote:
Amore wrote:
...(snip)...
Nobody likes truths that are inconvenient to their biases.


It's so cute when the board homophobes get all kissy kissy with each other.

affirmation by Brad.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:12 am 
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ludwigm wrote:
#749 of 750 Hungarian proverbs:
Megtalálta zsák a foltját.
The sack has found its patch.
('People of the same similar ideas have found each other.')

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=38114

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:41 am 
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subgenius wrote:
ludwigm wrote:
#749 of 750 Hungarian proverbs:
Megtalálta zsák a foltját.
The sack has found its patch.
('People of the same similar ideas have found each other.')

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... =5&t=38114

Friendly, as usual.
On that thread, Themis was the most honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:20 pm 
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Amore wrote:
Although obviously, having children is not a requirement for marriage, marriage's primary role in society is to protect the society that emerges - which is always through the union of a sperm and an egg (from a man and a woman).


Wow, well then we hetero folks better get on the stick and do something about the 1/3 divorce rate, the annual 500K reported cases of child abuse/neglect in the U.S. and the stinking crime rate, because we're obviously the ones screwing it all up.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:56 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Amore wrote:
Although obviously, having children is not a requirement for marriage, marriage's primary role in society is to protect the society that emerges - which is always through the union of a sperm and an egg (from a man and a woman).


Wow, well then we hetero folks better get on the stick and do something about the 1/3 divorce rate, the annual 500K reported cases of child abuse/neglect in the U.S. and the stinking crime rate, because we're obviously the ones screwing it all up.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:46 pm 
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Amore wrote:
Yet, how many people who support homosexual "marriage" and denying children a mother or father, have put their biases aside long enough to explore the statistical consequences of homosexual practices through US CDC STDS, AIDS/HIV, mental illness and consequences of anal sex?
Nobody likes truths that are inconvenient to their biases.

Guten Tag, Amore! Haven't seen you since you last blasted Jews on this forum. Now you're back to blast homosexuals. Throw in membership in a church that embraced the Curse of Ham, and you've won the Nazi trifecta. Schmeling vs. Louis must have really tested your sympathies.

But back to the question at hand, which is: Does Ms. Davis has the right to refuse services based upon her legitimately held religious beliefs? If so, we're establishing a broad principle. Please answer the specific examples:

  • Does a Catholic Judge have the right to refuse to grant a divorce because of sincerely held religious beliefs?
  • Does a member of the Nation of Islam have the right to refuse to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple?
  • Delaware has 3 counties. If all 3 county clerks are against gay marriage, is gay marriage illegal in Delaware?

No one would be talking about Kim Davis if it weren't for the legal issue. I could care less about her personal religious convictions. But if a person's sincerely held religious convictions are a legitimate reason why that person need not be responsible for the oath they swore to uphold the Constitution, we are establishing a very broad principle and we better examine the legal ramifications. No one seems keen to discuss the broader issue: In a country where there is (alleged) separation of church and state, what are the rights of those who request that government officials execute the laws of the state without regard to their own religious feelings?

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:03 am 
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I'm not so sure Amore even believes in or approves of the constitutional separation of church and state. That may be part of her problem.

Personally, I don't think Kim Davis is any more justified in her stance than a DMV clerk who refuses to issue driver's licenses to women because of a religious conviction that women should not be allowed to drive cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:19 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
I'm not so sure Amore even believes in or approves of the constitutional separation of church and state. That may be part of her problem.

You really should read the Constitution before you claim to know what it means. Also check into American history.
Passing a law that respects a specific religion doesn't equate to this situation....at all.

Sherbert v. Verner (1963) - Supreme Court held that states must have a "compelling interest" to refuse to accommodate religiously motivated conduct.

"Personally" gay marriage ain't that compelling.


Gunnar wrote:
Personally, I don't think Kim Davis is any more justified in her stance than a DMV clerk who refuses to issue driver's licenses to women because of a religious conviction that women should not be allowed to drive cars.

Hopefully your "personal" feelings won't be used to justify legislation.....oh wait

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:18 pm 
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Subby,

Your and Amore's argument comes down to the simple fact you don't believe that LGBT persons are equally situated to straight persons. This entire thread is essentially a repository for documenting the types of bigotry you (and now Amore, though there are plenty of other threads on MormonDiscussions.com with her/his "anal sex leads to DEATH!" type arguments) hold towards them.

Whether you are arguing they are unequally situated because you think they have some form of defect, are unable to reproduce, or the types of sex they engage in are icky doesn't matter. Supreme Court has established they ARE, in fact, equally situated and thus have equal access to marriage as any straight couple.

It is therefore not an issue about whether or not a person has a religious conviction that makes them opposed to same-sex couples marrying. It's not about feelings. It's not about personal choice or the right to exercise of one's religion. An equally situated same-sex couple and heterosexual couple ought to be treated the same by a county clerk when it comes to exercising their duties. Because they have the right to equal protection under the law.

And that's about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:44 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
What disqualifies them?

well, here is the short list simplified-
1. Being genetically defective (e.g. incestuous marriages are disallowed on the same premise)
2. Being psychologically defective (e.g. incestuous marriages are disallowed on the same premise)
3. Being without any socially redeeming virtue (e.g. incestuous marriages are disallowed on same premise)


Seems like you've had so much time to develop an actual argument against s/s marriage, but you're still posting this lame list as your defense.

I note that in the state of Kentucky, folks with Down syndrome are allowed to marry, which eliminates your items 1 and 3 - assuming that you find no socially redeeming value in individuals with Down syndrome marrying that qualifies that arrangement more so than two same-sex applicants, whether either of the latter applicants might also have Down syndrome.

Your item 2 is eliminated by considering that depressed individuals ('psychologically defective', in your terms) are allowed to marry in Kentucky.

Even ignoring whether or not your premise was valid to begin with, Kim Davis loses her right to judgment here, as you do your case above. It is then unfortunate that your premise is invalid from the start, so you have doubled down on your failure.


http://www.kentuckyrivermc.com/kentucky-river-medical-center/health-library/down-syndrome-trisomy-21-33095.aspx


Last edited by canpakes on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:47 pm 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
Guten Tag, Amore! Haven't seen you since you last blasted Jews on this forum. Now you're back to blast homosexuals. Throw in membership in a church that embraced the Curse of Ham, and you've won the Nazi trifecta. Schmeling vs. Louis must have really tested your sympathies.


Poor Amore has had her crazy arguments against s/s marriage beaten back so badly by so many that she doesn't spend much time down here anymore repeating them.


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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:54 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Gunnar wrote:
I'm not so sure Amore even believes in or approves of the constitutional separation of church and state. That may be part of her problem.

You really should read the Constitution before you claim to know what it means. Also check into American history.
Passing a law that respects a specific religion doesn't equate to this situation....at all.

I have read it, and it is very clear to me that is the intent of the constitution. I will read it again, though, to refresh my memory. The vast majority of legal and constitutional scholars from Thomas Jefferson down to the present day have agreed with that. If it still isn't clear enough to some people, I would greatly favor a constitutional amendment that would make the wording so explicit that even you can understand it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:15 pm 
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Blah Blah Blah.

Talk all you want.

You EXIST because of heterosexuality.
Homosexuality still proves to be a harmful disorder statistically, medically, socially and psychology.


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 Post subject: Re: Kim Davis: Time to follow the law on gay marriage or res
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:40 pm 
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Amore wrote:

You EXIST because of heterosexuality.


So do homosexuals.

Your point is what?

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