Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _Jersey Girl »

ajax18 wrote:
Absolutely. Trump is the best negotiator in the world. I wouldn't want anyone else at the bargaining table looking out for my interests.


I wouldn't go so far as to say he's the best negotiator in the world. I think his brand of negotiating would be far different than we've seen previously.

But I also think that as a statesman, his delivery stinks on ice.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _Jersey Girl »

What I find interesting in all of this is the dynamic I see at play in that no one took Trump seriously. As I've said before, I think that some folks (particularly those on the young side of 30) think of him as the guy on the reality show.

For all we know, he's setting up a deal to ensure that Sarah Palin becomes our first female president, but taking on the nomination with her as VP candidate and when he bails on the presidency....she slips right in. She gets the distinction of being the first female president, he relieves himself of the business of running the country after proving he could win the presidency, and screws Hillary over all at the same time.

Has anyone else thought about that besides me?

Does that sound evil? I think it sounds a lot like Trump.

:-)
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_ajax18
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _ajax18 »

A high birthrate was the biggest driver of immigration: Mexico was producing more people than jobs. But trying to get a politician to talk truth about this third rail issue is impossible.


I think you're right. You seem like an odd Democrat for admitting that. The party line I keep hearing is that we need to raise taxes on Americans so high that we can provide so much foreign aid that people can still have as many kids as they want and provide them all a US standard of living immediately.

So Donald Trump wants Mexico to pay for building a wall along our border.


If Mexico wants its foreign aid handout, they'll pay for the wall. They wouldn't be the first foreign government that the US paid money to for the service of keeping their own people in their own country. That includes every other nationality that enters the US illegally through the Mexican border.

Anyway Trump has insulted the Government and the people of Mexico with his unsubstantiated comments. I don't think that's a particularly brilliant negotiating tactic when you want their country to pay for the wall.


He doesn't need to kiss Mexico's butt to be able to make them pay for the wall. He needs to convince conservative voters that he's willing to do it so he can win the primary and perhaps the general election. So far he's doing that.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_EAllusion
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _EAllusion »

The US gives Mexico about 200 million dollars a year. Most of this aid is meant to serve its direct military and policy interests. And yet even with that, it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of a wall across the entire border that would be more than a mere joke. That would cost billions and billions of dollars.

Holding up foreign aid as the stick that will make Mexico pay for such a wall is like saying you will force your friend to build a house for you or you will withhold the 200 bucks a year you give to him.
_ajax18
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _ajax18 »

EAllusion wrote:The US gives Mexico about 200 million dollars a year. Most of this aid is meant to serve its direct military and policy interests. And yet even with that, it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of a wall across the entire border that would be more than a mere joke. That would cost billions and billions of dollars.

Holding up foreign aid as the stick that will make Mexico pay for such a wall is like saying you will force your friend to build a house for you or you will withhold the 200 bucks a year you give to him.


The Washington Office on Latin America notes on its Border Fact Check site that the extremely high cost of complying with the Secure Fence Act's mandate, estimated at US$4.1 billion, or more than the Border Patrol’s entire annual budget of US$3.55 billion, was the main reason that it was not fulfilled.[22]


If it costs $4.1 billion to build the wall, then it would take 20.5 years of Mexican foreign aid money to pay for that right? If your house cost $200,000, and you paid $200/yr, that would take 1000 years, right?

How much do we give the other Latin American countries? Why don't we make them help pay for it too in the same way? It's not because we can't do it or because it's not feasible. Just being willing to even propose the idea won my vote.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_EAllusion
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _EAllusion »

It costs a few billion to build a wall to current standards that can be easily breached in a few minutes and is impossible to patrol. If you want more than a really expensive symbolic gesture to racists and xenophobes, it will cost much more than that.

Though even with the number you go with, that's still a terrible deal for Mexico.
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _ajax18 »

It costs a few billion to build a wall to current standards that can be easily breached in a few minutes and is impossible to patrol.


It'd be a lot better than what we currently have.

A July 29, 2010 Rasmussen Reports nationwide poll revealed that Americans favored building a fence along the U.S. border with Mexico, with 68 percent in favor and 21 percent against (margin of error: +/- 3 percentage points)


If you want more than a really expensive symbolic gesture to racists and xenophobes, it will cost much more than that.


So 68% of the country are racists and xenophobes?

Though even with the number you go with, that's still a terrible deal for Mexico.


Like I said, I'd include all of Central America in on this for sure and probably most of South America. I think the point is that the status quo is a really bad deal for native born Americans. That's why Trump is winning.

Trump didn't say he would offer Mexico the opportunity to help pay for the wall if they so desired. He said he'd make them pay for it. I know Colombia was getting $1 billion/yr from the US for their phony war on drugs that they pretended to fight. You'd probably agree that was a waste of money, right? How much does Latin America get in foreign aid altogether per year?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Themis
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _Themis »

ajax18 wrote:If it costs $4.1 billion to build the wall, then it would take 20.5 years of Mexican foreign aid money to pay for that right? If your house cost $200,000, and you paid $200/yr, that would take 1000 years, right?

How much do we give the other Latin American countries? Why don't we make them help pay for it too in the same way? It's not because we can't do it or because it's not feasible. Just being willing to even propose the idea won my vote.


So waste money on a wall that is easily breached. You would need a lot of money to man it and maintain the wall, and it would still not stop the flow. It would cost 100's of billions to try and round up all illegals close to half who got in legally. This is a waste of money. There are much better ways to solve the problems. Trump is just telling the extreme right what they want to hear, even though much of it would not work. And the gullible are lapping it up. I don't know that he believe's much of what he is saying, and is just playing politics to the extreme to build up a base of support.

The US does not give a lot of development aid. They tend to give more to countries for what they may consider is in their security interest. They do give a bit to Israel though.
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_ajax18
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _ajax18 »

You would need a lot of money to man it and maintain the wall, and it would still not stop the flow.


Why do you lock your car doors? Don't you know that the thieves will just break your window to get what they need? Now you have to pay for the cost of the locks, the alarm, and your window. Why don't you just give the thieves that $400 and maybe they won't have any reason to rob you?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Themis
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Re: Utahns would vote for Trump over Clinton

Post by _Themis »

ajax18 wrote:
You would need a lot of money to man it and maintain the wall, and it would still not stop the flow.


Why do you lock your car doors? Don't you know that the thieves will just break your window to get what they need? Now you have to pay for the cost of the locks, the alarm, and your window. Why don't you just give the thieves that $400 and maybe they won't have any reason to rob you?


We look at the cost benefits for each. Illegals actually commit less crime then the general public so we cannot compare them to trying to steal your car. You want to see all negative and reject that there may be positives. You would probably need to spend 100's of billions of dollars or more to build a wall and have the people necessary to keep out people looking to make their lives better. Chain link wont work. Since 40% get in through the door a wall doesn't do any good. You would need to spend 100's of billions more to find and deport over 10 million people. The other problem is Mexicans are not coming over the border in the numbers they did in the past, and the trend is for even less as their economy continues to grow and birth rates drop. The money would be wasted which could be put to much much better use. It's not realistic and a waste of tax payer money which you say you hate. So why not look at solutions that can have an impact?
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