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 Post subject: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:31 pm 
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There is a measles outbreak of over 50 cases in in Clark County, Washington, which could be seen coming from a mile away. In 2017, only 78% of Kindergarteners had their full range of shots.

The last big measles outbreak happened in Philadelphia around a Faith Healing Congregation that discouraged vaccinations. Thousand got the measles. Nine children eventually died. Now that the measles outbreak is actually occuring in Clark County, the vaccination rate this year is up 500%. People are abandoning their old time religion for science in a needle. Public health is where the irresistible force of greater good meets the immovable object of religious freedom.

But where does the right of one person to practice their religion interfere with another's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? A simplified version of Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative is the question "What if everybody did it?". What if 40% of Americans refused to vaccinated for diseases? Our health care landscape would be drastically worse.

It has been said that your right to swing your arm freely ends where the other man's nose begins. The same principle should apply to public health and religious freedom.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Oh boy am I going to jump in on this topic. But not just yet. I'll come back to this for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:13 pm 
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Is there reason to think this is related to religion? This part of the country is not big on old time religion though I suppose noplace is immune. There have been been anti immunization fears spread about some groups without religious connection.


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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:29 pm 
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what if everybody did it?

such as??
moved to Phoenix?
Played the Oboe?
devoted their life to being a plumber?
raised only cotton?
climbed Mt Rainer every year?
become professional guides to fishing the South Fork of the Snake?
Got a Ph.D. in math? or philosophy?
became professional chess players?

I miss the sense in this moral guide.


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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:37 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Is there reason to think this is related to religion? This part of the country is not big on old time religion though I suppose noplace is immune. There have been been anti immunization fears spread about some groups without religious connection.


Oprah, Oz, Jenny McCarthy and various professional woosters as much as religion. Some religions are less scientific than others.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:58 pm 
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I know that this isn't precisely what you had in mind MeDot, but I do think it will add to the discussion at hand. Let me post a couple or three snippets of a wiki for the express purpose of enticing the reader to investigate further how all of this started.

Because it started with a conflict of interest driven by a disreputable doctor.

Meet Andrew Jeremy Wakefield.


Quote:
Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born 1957)[1][2] is a discredited former British doctor who became an anti-vaccine activist. He was a gastroenterologist until he was struck off the UK medical register for unethical behaviour, misconduct and dishonesty. In 1998 he was the lead author of a fraudulent research paper claiming that there was a link between the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism and bowel disease.


Quote:
WebMD reported on Deer's BMJ report, saying that the $43 million predicted yearly profits would come from marketing kits for "diagnosing patients with autism" and that "the initial market for the diagnostic will be litigation-driven testing of patients with AE [autistic enterocolitis, an unproven condition concocted by Wakefield] from both the UK and the US".[100] According to WebMD, the BMJ article also claimed that Carmel Healthcare Ltd would succeed in marketing products and developing a replacement vaccine if "public confidence in the MMR vaccine was damaged".[100]

In October 2012, research published in PNAS, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, identified Wakefield's 1998 paper as the most cited retracted scientific paper, with 758 citations, and gave the "reason for retraction" as "fraud".[4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:10 pm 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
There is a measles outbreak of over 50 cases in in Clark County, Washington, which could be seen coming from a mile away. In 2017, only 78% of Kindergarteners had their full range of shots.



Yep. And that's not the only reported outbreak.

Quote:
The last big measles outbreak happened in Philadelphia around a Faith Healing Congregation that discouraged vaccinations. Thousand got the measles. Nine children eventually died. Now that the measles outbreak is actually occuring in Clark County, the vaccination rate this year is up 500%. People are abandoning their old time religion for science in a needle. Public health is where the irresistible force of greater good meets the immovable object of religious freedom.


Here's what I've got from the CDC website. This is the instances of measles just prior to the first MMR vaccines.

Quote:
In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.


Quote:

But where does the right of one person to practice their religion interfere with another's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? A simplified version of Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative is the question "What if everybody did it?". What if 40% of Americans refused to vaccinated for diseases? Our health care landscape would be drastically worse.


It is not just the practicing of religion. Medical, religious and philosophical exemptions are now being challenged. In my view, only the medical exemptions should be left to stand.

Quote:
It has been said that your right to swing your arm freely ends where the other man's nose begins. The same principle should apply to public health and religious freedom.


Vulnerable children and adults whose immune systems are compromised were previously thought to be protected by herd immunity. As you can see by the current rise in measles diagnoses, the effectiveness of herd immunity is failing.

There are parents who place strong faith in anti-vaxx influencers. If I read about one more parent suggesting essential oils, elderberry, or other unregulated supplements as prevention or treatments for these childhood diseases, I think my head will blow apart in pieces.

These are parents who have never seen a child die from measles, who never had the measles (mumps or rubella) themselves because they were vaccinated, have never known even one person in their lives who had polio that lived their lives in an iron lung.

Your responsibility begins and your rights end when you are moving about as part of the population and pose a public threat to society. In this case, a public health threat.

That's where your rights end, as well they should.

If that is not the case, then let's remove road signage and traffic lights while we're at it, and see how that ____ goes.

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Last edited by Jersey Girl on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:46 pm 
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Here's an example of what the anti-vaxxers are reading. This is about a new super vaccine.

Note the absence of a link to the clinical trial and notice how the anonymous author is using the child deaths in the clinical trials to ratchet up fear in the reader. Do a little more digging and you'll see this is coming from a lobbyist group.

http://www.anh-usa.org/new-super-vaccine-approved/

I'm not sure I am up for a super vaccine. I'm certainly not on board with the fear mongering or exploiting children to do it. I have seen the clinical trial outcomes. The deaths seemed well within the normative percentages of each cause of death listed as I looked up the stats for each cause of death in the population for multiple years.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:40 am 
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I was incorrect in saying the anti-vaxxers were only doing so out of religious convictions. There are different viewpoints within the anti-vaccine movement.

'What if everybody did it' is usually an example of individual behavior that may not seem egregious in and of itself, but if everyone were allowed to do it, the results would be hugely negative. Running red lights, double-parking, butting in line, cheating on taxes, driving without insurance, etc.

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"We've kept more promises than we've even made"
- Donald Trump
"Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land


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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:12 am 
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The stereotype of an anti-vaxxer I have in mind is an affluent liberal who isn't all that religious, but describes themselves as "spiritual" when asked. The conservative, religious anti-vaxxers are always the ones I have to remember because the intellectual energy and leadership of the anti-vax movement comes primarily from the left. This is one of those issues where the far left and far right, or at least important subcultures within them, tend to align. Anti-GMO's is another. So is pro-supplement taking.


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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:22 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Is there reason to think this is related to religion? This part of the country is not big on old time religion though I suppose noplace is immune. There have been been anti immunization fears spread about some groups without religious connection.

Oprah, Oz, Jenny McCarthy and various professional woosters as much as religion. Some religions are less scientific than others.

You’re right. There are philosophical exemptions as well as religious. And there might be some areas that do see an uptick in NME rates due to religious attitudes that just haven’t been hit with an outbreak yet. Looks like ‘luck of the draw’ sometimes:

Quote:
At the county level, Idaho had eight of the 10 highest NME rates of all states in the study group. Camas County, the second least populous county in the state, had the highest rate, with nearly 27 percent of kindergarteners having a documented NME. Utah's Morgan County was 10th, with a rate of almost 15 percent.

In addition to the states with higher NME rates, the researchers found a number of metropolitan areas with large numbers of kindergarteners with NMEs. Metropolitan areas with populations of more than 1 million people that had high NME numbers included

Detroit;
Houston;
Kansas City, Mo.;
Phoenix;
Pittsburgh;
Portland, Ore.;
Salt Lake City; and
Seattle.

https://www.aafp.org/news/health-of-the ... empts.html


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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:44 am 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
It has been said that your right to swing your arm freely ends where the other man's nose begins. The same principle should apply to public health and religious freedom.

It does apply to religious freedom, which is why we are absent a Church of the Baby Eaters. But in cases of healthcare, I do not see how you can magically impose the State's will so arbitrarily when it comes to child vaccinations but support a hammer to the head if the child's foot is still in the uterus. Or to speak to this topic, if medical procedures are a choice and a commodity how can you insist that persons be vaccinated. If you and your family are vaccinated then why does it matter to you? if the unvaccinated neighbor falls to measles?

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:52 am 
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subgenius wrote:
MeDotOrg wrote:
It has been said that your right to swing your arm freely ends where the other man's nose begins. The same principle should apply to public health and religious freedom.

It does apply to religious freedom, which is why we are absent a Church of the Baby Eaters.

https://stlambert.org/news/are-dead-babies-in-my-cola


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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:02 am 
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Quasi on/off-topic, but I think this is groovy enough to share:

I can’t find the study, so I hope I summarize it properly. It was just published last month. It was a working hypothesis on mortality rates, and the measles vaccine.

When the measles vaccine is introduced to a new population, the mortality rate for a host of diseases plummets significantly. The research paper postulates that this is because of what the measles virus does to the immune system. It essentially gives the immune system a hardcore case of amnesia. A whole host of things that your body has gradually built up immunities for are suddenly able to party in your innards.

By having immunity to measles, populations are then protected from this particular byproduct of contracting measles, and are able to retain the various immunities that they already have developed.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:28 pm 
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Doctor Steuss wrote:
When the measles vaccine is introduced to a new population, the mortality rate for a host of diseases plummets significantly.


Was "plummets" a typo? Mortality rates going down means survivor rates go up. Just trying to be sure I understand your point.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:54 pm 
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Analytics wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:
When the measles vaccine is introduced to a new population, the mortality rate for a host of diseases plummets significantly.


Was "plummets" a typo? Mortality rates going down means survivor rates go up. Just trying to be sure I understand your point.

Hi Analytics. It wasn't a typo. There are fewer deaths from other diseases when the measles vaccine is introduced.

This particular study hypothesized that this is because of what measles does to the immune system -- measles essentially presses the reset button on the immune system. Once measles is vaccinated against, there is no longer this potential, and various diseases are no longer as deadly because acquired immunities remain in place.

An example would be chicken pox. If you were to get it as a child, and then contract measles as a young adult, your immunity to chicken pox would be erased. You would then be susceptible to contract chicken pox as an adult (along with its increased mortality rate with adults).

Hopefully that makes a little more sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:45 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
what if everybody did it?

such as??
moved to Phoenix?
Played the Oboe?
devoted their life to being a plumber?
raised only cotton?
climbed Mt Rainer every year?
become professional guides to fishing the South Fork of the Snake?
Got a Ph.D. in math? or philosophy?
became professional chess players?

I miss the sense in this moral guide.


That's because you haven't seen the principle the way Kant expressed it, which relates to how people make moral decisions. It relates to general rules for decisions, such as 'I may tell lies if it will bring me advantage', or 'It is always wrong to kill people'.

See here for more on this:

The Categorical Imperative

Quote:
This conception of a categorical imperative leads Kant to his first official formulation of the categorical imperative itself: “act only in accordance with that maxim through which you can at the same time will that it become a universal law” (4:421). A maxim is a general rule that can be used to determine particular courses of actions in particular circumstances. For instance, the maxim “I shall lie when it will get me out of trouble” can be used to determine the decision to lie about an adulterous liaison. The categorical imperative offers a decision procedure for determining whether a given course of action is in accordance with the moral law. After determining what maxim one would be basing the action in question on, one then asks whether it would be possible, given the power (in an imagined, hypothetical scenario), to choose that everyone act in accordance with that same maxim. If it is possible to will that everyone act according to that maxim, then the action under consideration is morally permissible. If it is not possible to will that everyone act according to that maxim, the action is morally impermissible. Lying to cover up adultery is thus immoral because one cannot will that everyone act according to the maxim, “I shall lie when it will get me out of trouble.” Note that it is not simply that it would be undesirable for everyone to act according to that maxim. Rather, it would be impossible. Since everyone would know that everyone else was acting according to that maxim, there would never be the presupposition that anyone was telling the truth; the very act of lying, of course, requires such a presupposition on the part of the one being lied to. Hence, the state of affairs where everyone lies to get out of trouble can never arise, so it cannot be willed to be a universal law. It fails the test of the categorical imperative.


You don't have to agree with this - but I hope you will see that the point of view in question is not obviously nonsensical or devoid of interest.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:08 pm 
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I doubt that the Clark County outbreak is religiously based. Here in Washington, we let anyone opt out of immunizations in the guise of philosophical objections.

Given that only a couple of sects in the US prohibit objections, people generally misuse religious objections when their actual objections are political: anti-government, anti big pharmaceutical, or both.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:55 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
If you and your family are vaccinated then why does it matter to you? if the unvaccinated neighbor falls to measles?

Vaccination does not prevent infections during a large outbreak. It's effectiveness is reduced.

See this study from Nigeria, for example, where vaccination rates are lower and the percentage of infections of vaccinated children is high when an outbreak occurs:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4507133/

Of 234 children tested (124 [53.2%] female), 133 (56.8%) had previously been vaccinated against measles virus, while 93 (39.7%) had not been vaccinated. Vaccination information for eight children could not be retrieved. One hundred and forty-three (62.4%) had measles IgM antibodies. Of these, 79 (55.3%) had been vaccinated for measles, while 65 (44.7%) had not. Despite the ongoing vaccination program in Nigeria, a high number of children are still being infected with measles, despite their vaccination status.

As to your other questions to MeDotOrg, it comes back to personhood. We've been over that.

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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:10 am 
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Chap wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
what if everybody did it?

I miss the sense in this moral guide.

That's because you haven't seen the principle the way Kant expressed it, which relates to how people make moral decisions. It relates to general rules for decisions, such as 'I may tell lies if it will bring me advantage', or 'It is always wrong to kill people'.

See here for more on this:

The Categorical Imperative

Quote:
This conception of a categorical imperative leads Kant to his first official formulation of the categorical imperative itself: “act only in accordance with that maxim through which you can at the same time will that it become a universal law” (4:421). A maxim is a general rule that can be used to determine particular courses of actions in particular circumstances. For instance, the maxim “I shall lie when it will get me out of trouble” can be used to determine the decision to lie about an adulterous liaison. The categorical imperative offers a decision procedure for determining whether a given course of action is in accordance with the moral law. After determining what maxim one would be basing the action in question on, one then asks whether it would be possible, given the power (in an imagined, hypothetical scenario), to choose that everyone act in accordance with that same maxim. If it is possible to will that everyone act according to that maxim, then the action under consideration is morally permissible. If it is not possible to will that everyone act according to that maxim, the action is morally impermissible. Lying to cover up adultery is thus immoral because one cannot will that everyone act according to the maxim, “I shall lie when it will get me out of trouble.” Note that it is not simply that it would be undesirable for everyone to act according to that maxim. Rather, it would be impossible. Since everyone would know that everyone else was acting according to that maxim, there would never be the presupposition that anyone was telling the truth; the very act of lying, of course, requires such a presupposition on the part of the one being lied to. Hence, the state of affairs where everyone lies to get out of trouble can never arise, so it cannot be willed to be a universal law. It fails the test of the categorical imperative.

You don't have to agree with this - but I hope you will see that the point of view in question is not obviously nonsensical or devoid of interest.

Chap, you have shined a light on an area where I have remained lazily ignorant (reading what Kant was actually doing) I thank you, you have clarified well.

In relation to the subject of vaccinations I can see the principal would fit for a person genuinely believing that vaccination had more health benefits danger than benefits though there is also a principal that a person should seek the best information and understanding. The possible case of a person trying to express some extra special religious faith would be shown to be acting immorally due to possible increased dangers to others.


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 Post subject: Re: Vaccinations, Personal Freedom, Social Responsibility
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:25 pm 
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I just want to put this here due to deep personal concern and stress at the moment because our lives have been suddenly impacted by something that does have to do with vaccines as prevention.

We've got someone (adult) out here in ICU right now with a life threatening condition called epiglottitis. They were hospitalized last night via the ED. Suffice it to say we are all very worried.

If you read through this link you can see the value of vaccines in preventing this condition.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20372231

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