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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:46 pm 
God

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Before the indictments you already knew things like this: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... ce-gru-vpn

and this: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... l-accounts

There's so much evidence of Russian activity it's comical. After the indictments, you can see this very detailed picture emerge just on what we're able to access. When some of these pieces of evidence have been pointed out to Water Dog, he's reasoned that it could actually be a super-sophisticated framing job.

viewtopic.php?p=1096307#p1096307

You can't reason with that level of (deliberate) thick-headedness.


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Lots of things were said without any real smoke. Do you have any examples to provide some substance to your assertion? Things is very different with Trump. Much of the smoke comes from his own words and behaviors. Even a number of Republicans and republican friendly organizations are telling us of Russian interference. Maybe if you can provide an example with Obama we can see if we have a number of democrats agreeing.

I can think of a few examples, yeah, lol.

1980s calling! Cold war is over!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bowhUWl6rxQ

Obama says no point in provoking Russia... what good will it serve?

https://twitter.com/MZHemingway/status/ ... 5470356480

Obama caught on hot mic saying he can't be seen as friendly with Russia until after election...

https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/status ... 8892087298

How about Crimea, Syria, ISIS, Uranium One?

http://time.com/26522/russia-crimea-ukr ... ans-obama/

http://thehill.com/policy/national-secu ... nistration

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... crets.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... -statement

https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/03/09/ob ... ction-win/

Look, the Russians preferred Obama, he must have been in their pocket. Clearly his presidency proves that, right? He gave them everything they wanted.

https://www.my wife.com/en/russians-prefer-t ... /a-3742721

Treasonous!

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... aitor.html


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:56 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Before the indictments you already knew things like this: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... ce-gru-vpn

and this: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... l-accounts

There's so much evidence of Russian activity it's comical. After the indictments, you can see this very detailed picture emerge just on what we're able to access. When some of these pieces of evidence have been pointed out to Water Dog, he's reasoned that it could actually be a super-sophisticated framing job.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 7#p1096307

You can't reason with that level of (deliberate) thick-headedness.


Thanks for the links.

First, I was not aware of this. All I have asked for is the evidence. Show me the evidence. I believe this is the first time anybody has actually linked to some supposed evidence. Still not the actual evidence, but at least it's a report discussing supposed evidence that exists. I do not track every news report that has come out, this is information I had missed.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... ce-gru-vpn

Quote:
American investigators have identified two people behind the Guccifer 2.0 persona, both officers of the GRU. The investigators were apparently able to unmask the hacker thanks to one crucial mistake: the hacker forgot to turn on his VPN once, revealing his real IP address, presumably when he used either WordPress or Twitter.


LOL. In the other thread I sarcastically joked about identifying the hacker because they failed to use a VPN. And now it turns out that truly is what this is based on? They have an IP address from Russia. Wow, that's some hard hitting evidence right there. Madness.


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Poor Dog believes in the Deep State. SMH. :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:14 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Poor Dog believes in the Deep State. SMH. :rolleyes:

Yes, I do. I am one of its employees.


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:22 pm 
God

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Water Dog wrote:
Look, the Russians preferred Obama, he must have been in their pocket. Clearly his presidency proves that, right? He gave them everything they wanted.



LOL Not even one example. Do we see democrats saying Russians interfered with elections to get Obama elected like we see Republicans saying about Trump? Do we see government agencies saying the same thing? Do we see Obama treating allies as enemies and wanting to get along better with Russia at the same time? Did Obama ever say we should recognize Crimea as Russian territory? Do we see indictments like we are seeing with people around Trump? You are not even in the ball park. Like I said, bad people can get away with anything with their followers.

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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:22 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
LOL. In the other thread I sarcastically joked about identifying the hacker because they failed to use a VPN. And now it turns out that truly is what this is based on? They have an IP address from Russia. Wow, that's some hard hitting evidence right there. Madness.
No, that's a start that allows further unraveling, which is clearly in what I linked.

Also, some of my links are 1) things I've linked to you before and 2) responses from you about those links. Seems odd to claim you've never seen that before. Is this someone else posting under the Water Dog account?


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Poor Dog believes in the Deep State. SMH. :rolleyes:

Yes, I do. I am one of its employees.


I was a fed for 33 years. What you are probably calling the "Deep State" are career people who often represent very valuable human capital. Their loyalty is not in question. Their accomplishments are not in question. The question here is whether you are loyal to Americans or to Russians. That is not complicated. If you are inclined to favor a foreign government's interests over those of American citizens and the United States of America, I suggest you resign your commission or position immediately. I am absolutely serious.

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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:01 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
LOL. In the other thread I sarcastically joked about identifying the hacker because they failed to use a VPN. And now it turns out that truly is what this is based on? They have an IP address from Russia. Wow, that's some hard hitting evidence right there. Madness.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... e-dnc-hack

The forensic evidence linking the DNC breach to known Russian operations is very strong. On June 20, two competing cybersecurity companies, Mandiant (part of FireEye) and Fidelis, confirmed CrowdStrike's initial findings that Russian intelligence indeed hacked the DNC. The forensic evidence that links network breaches to known groups is solid: used and reused tools, methods, infrastructure, even unique encryption keys. For example: in late March the attackers registered a domain with a typo—misdepatrment[.]com—to look suspiciously like the company hired by the DNC to manage its network, MIS Department. They then linked this deceptive domain to a long-known APT 28 so-called X-Tunnel command-and-control IP address, 45.32.129[.]185.

One of the strongest pieces of evidence linking GRU to the DNC hack is the equivalent of identical fingerprints found in two burglarized buildings: a reused command-and-control address—176.31.112[.]10—that was hard coded in a piece of malware found both in the German parliament as well as on the DNC's servers. Russian military intelligence was identified by the German domestic security agency BfV as the actor responsible for the Bundestag breach. The infrastructure behind the fake MIS Department domain was also linked to the Berlin intrusion through at least one other element, a shared SSL certificate.

The evidence linking the Guccifer 2.0 account to the same Russian operators is not as solid, yet a deception operation—a GRU false flag, in technical jargon—is still highly likely. Intelligence operatives and cybersecurity professionals long knew that such false flags were becoming more common. One noteworthy example was the sabotage of France's TV5 Monde station on 9/10 April 2015, initially claimed by the mysterious "CyberCaliphate," a group allegedly linked to ISIS. Then, in June, the French authorities suspected the same infamous APT 28 group behind the TV5 Monde breach, in preparation since January of that year. But the DNC deception is the most detailed and most significant case study so far. The technical details are as remarkable as its strategic context.

The metadata in the leaked documents are perhaps most revealing: one dumped document was modified using Russian language settings, by a user named "Феликс Эдмундович," a code name referring to the founder of the Soviet Secret Police, the Cheka, memorialised in a 15-ton iron statue in front of the old KGB headquarters during Soviet times. The original intruders made other errors: one leaked document included hyperlink error messages in Cyrillic, the result of editing the file on a computer with Russian language settings. After this mistake became public, the intruders removed the Cyrillic information from the metadata in the next dump and carefully used made-up user names from different world regions, thereby confirming they had made a mistake in the first round.

Then there is the language issue. "I hate being attributed to Russia," the Guccifer 2.0 account told Motherboard, probably accurately. The person at the keyboard then claimed in a chat with Motherboard's Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai that Guccifer 2.0 was from Romania, like the original Guccifer, a well-known hacker. But when asked to explain his hack in Romanian, he was unable to respond colloquially and without errors. Guccifer 2.0's English initially was also weak, but in subsequent posts the quality improved sharply, albeit only on political subjects, not in technical matters—an indication of a team of operators at work behind the scenes.

Other features are also suspicious. One is timing, as ThreatConnect, another security company, has pointed out in a useful analysis: various timestamps indicate that the Guccifer-branded leaking operation was prompted by the DNC's initial publicity, with preparation starting around 24 hours after CrowdStrike's report came out. Both APT 28 and Guccifer were using French infrastructure for communications. ThreatConnect then pointed out that both the self-proclaimed hacker's technical statements on the use of 0-day exploits as well as the alleged timeline of the DNC breach are most likely false. Another odd circumstantial finding: sock-puppet social media accounts may have been created specifically to amplify and extend Guccifer's reach, as UK intelligence startup Ripjar told me.

Perhaps most curiously, the Guccifer 2.0 account, from the beginning, was not simply claiming to have breached the DNC network—but claiming that two Russian actors actually were not on the DNC network at the same time. It is common to find multiple intruders in tempting yet badly defended networks. Nevertheless the Guccifer 2.0 account claimed confidently, and with no supporting evidence, that the breach was simply a "lone hacker"—a phrasing that seems designed to deflect blame from Russia. Guccifer 2.0's availability to the journalists was also surprising, and something new altogether.

The combative yet error-prone handling of the Guccifer account is in line with the GRU's aggressive and risk-taking organizational culture and a wartime mindset prevalent in the Russian intelligence community. Russia's agencies see themselves as instruments of direct action, working in support of a fragile Russia under siege by the West, especially the United States.

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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
Yes, I do. I am one of its employees.


I was a fed for 33 years. What you are probably calling the "Deep State" are career people who often represent very valuable human capital. Their loyalty is not in question. Their accomplishments are not in question. The question here is whether you are loyal to Americans or to Russians. That is not complicated. If you are inclined to favor a foreign government's interests over those of American citizens and the United States of America, I suggest you resign your commission or position immediately. I am absolutely serious.


What you describe is exactly what I think the Deep State is. It's a sort of mooring that keeps our Republic from devolving into one of the banana persuasion. Thank god Presidents just can't come in and do whatever the ____ they want. God help us if there weren't bureaucrats and bureaucratic layers to governing.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
I was a fed for 33 years. What you are probably calling the "Deep State" are career people who often represent very valuable human capital. Their loyalty is not in question. Their accomplishments are not in question. The question here is whether you are loyal to Americans or to Russians. That is not complicated. If you are inclined to favor a foreign government's interests over those of American citizens and the United States of America, I suggest you resign your commission or position immediately. I am absolutely serious.

The ____? Are you suggesting that career bureaucrats should see themselves as existing within a fourth branch of government, independent of the electorate? Are you suggesting that career bureaucrats, and by extension an entrenched bureaucracy, cannot have its own biases and self-serving interests? Thirty three years in the system though, that does explain some things :)


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
What you describe is exactly what I think the Deep State is. It's a sort of mooring that keeps our Republic from devolving into one of the banana persuasion. Thank god Presidents just can't come in and do whatever the ____ they want. God help us if there weren't bureaucrats and bureaucratic layers to governing.

I'll be honest that I find this comment rather disturbing. You see the federal bureaucracy has having an independent role that oversees the electorate?


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
What you describe is exactly what I think the Deep State is. It's a sort of mooring that keeps our Republic from devolving into one of the banana persuasion. Thank god Presidents just can't come in and do whatever the ____ they want. God help us if there weren't bureaucrats and bureaucratic layers to governing.

I'll be honest that I find this comment rather disturbing. You see the federal bureaucracy has having an independent role that oversees the electorate?


No. I see the feds as being rather anchored in policy and law that prevents politicians from easily doing what they want to do. Since you're familiar with the Army, think of how chaotic it would be if every Captain Goodideafairy was able to do whatever he wanted to do, especially if it meant to benefit him at his Soldiers' expense, both literally and figuratively. Same deal with the "deep state" gubmint.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
No. I see the feds as being rather anchored in policy and law that prevents politicians from easily doing what they want to do. Since you're familiar with the Army, think of how chaotic it would be if every Captain Goodideafairy was able to do whatever he wanted to do, especially if it meant to benefit him at his Soldiers' expense, both literally and figuratively. Same deal with the "deep state" gubmint.

I see what you're saying, but it works in both directions. Ideally the bureaucracy should be nimble and react to the electorate rather than being an organism unto itself that grows endlessly. What's the saying, patriotism is the last refuse of a scoundrel. With the present situation you've got career bureaucrats acting in both open and silent defiance of President. They may be chanting 'Merica, but their job security is all they really care about.


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
They may be chanting 'Merica, but their job security is all they really care about.


Well. They're human. And do you really want a government that can be totally swept way and staffed with partisans every few years? How would you enjoy working directly for some of the most partisan Leftists on this board?

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:29 pm 
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"The Deep State" is a term meant to refer to the bureaucratic, and especially security apparatus, civil workforce that is consistent from administration to administration acting in its own interests. It's a useful concept that has been utterly ruined by lunatic conspiracy theories coming from the American right primarily meant to protect Trump and secondarily meant to justify partisan purges of the civil service.

What's a more than a little annoying is there's lots of reason to think the Deep State is responsible for the election of Donald Trump (good call there guys: bang up job) via totally irresponsible handling of the Clinton email affair. Yet 90+% of the focus on the "Deep State" is over whether there is a cabal of anti-Trump conspirators framing him.


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:38 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
I was a fed for 33 years. What you are probably calling the "Deep State" are career people who often represent very valuable human capital. Their loyalty is not in question. Their accomplishments are not in question. The question here is whether you are loyal to Americans or to Russians. That is not complicated. If you are inclined to favor a foreign government's interests over those of American citizens and the United States of America, I suggest you resign your commission or position immediately. I am absolutely serious.

The ____? Are you suggesting that career bureaucrats should see themselves as existing within a fourth branch of government, independent of the electorate? Are you suggesting that career bureaucrats, and by extension an entrenched bureaucracy, cannot have its own biases and self-serving interests? Thirty three years in the system though, that does explain some things :)


Nope. Didn't say any of those things. You're putting words in my mouth. That shows how far you're gone.

You took an oath but here you are breaking it. I'm very disappointed in you, Dog.

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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:44 pm 
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https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-b ... res-980774

Russian media declares "Trump is Ours!"

And that was before recent events.

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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:48 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
With the present situation you've got career bureaucrats acting in both open and silent defiance of President. They may be chanting 'Merica, but their job security is all they really care about.

"Acting in both open and silent defiance of President" is going to help them stay employed by and for the President? Got it.


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:27 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
No. I see the feds as being rather anchored in policy and law that prevents politicians from easily doing what they want to do. Since you're familiar with the Army, think of how chaotic it would be if every Captain Goodideafairy was able to do whatever he wanted to do, especially if it meant to benefit him at his Soldiers' expense, both literally and figuratively. Same deal with the "deep state" gubmint.


... Ideally the bureaucracy should be nimble and react to the electorate ...


Er, no. They are there to apply the laws of the United States of America, consistent with the constitution. (That's right, isn't it?). If the electorate votes for people who eventually succeed in changing the laws and the constitution by legal means, then it is their duty to follow the rewritten laws and constitution, or resign. But not till then.

Water Dog wrote:
What's the saying, patriotism is the last refuse of a scoundrel.


Dr Samuel Johnson was talking about scoundrels, not patriotism when he said that. (by the way it's 'refuge' not 'refuse'.) He was saying that when a crooked politician is desperate to hang on to his support, he will often go down the 'I am such a patriot' route. It's his final hiding place. You know, like I may be a crook, but stick with me and Make America Great Again?


Water Dog wrote:
With the present situation you've got career bureaucrats acting in both open and silent defiance of President. ...


And that is exactly what they ought to do if they believe that the law has been broken, even if the President would much rather pretend that is has not happened.

You seem to want exactly what the framers of the constitution were anxious to avoid - an elective dictatorship without limitation by law. Sort of like 'King Donald' instead of 'King George'.

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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: But they keep finding witches...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:57 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
They may be chanting 'Merica, but their job security is all they really care about.


Well. They're human. And do you really want a government that can be totally swept way and staffed with partisans every few years? How would you enjoy working directly for some of the most partisan Leftists on this board?

- Doc


Term limits would take care of a lot of the "Deep State". But while GOP is in power they won't upset the cart. The Deep State thing is a mix of hypocrisy, paranoia and horsecock.

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