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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
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Not saying either option is more moral than the other, just that the hoped-for result may not end up being what happens when folks get hungry.


I was always taught that the moral choice was to be patient and work for what you get rather than stealing. Stealing while easier was considered morally wrong. But I was raised conservative. What do liberals teach there children about such moral questions? That it's all morally relative to the situation or perhaps whether the person stealing was a minority or not?

I find it strange that I'm considered the immoral monster to humanity and yet I seem to be the only one who sees stealing as wrong.


Wait. I'm fairly Liberal and I taught my kids not to steal. Am I doing it wrong?

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:28 pm 
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It's hard to "be patient" when you are starving. No one was making a moral judgment about stealing. That's said in black and white in the paragraph you quote. It's arguing that a policy consequence of removing SNAP might be more social breakdown. Admonishing people to be moral isn't going to fix that.

A similar idea might be noting that abstinence only sex ed increases the teen pregnancy rate by stigmatizing responsible sex and leading to more rash, unprepared decisions. No one is saying abstinence is a bad idea, just that a little knowledge about human behavior helps us know that undesireable consequences may follow from poor sex ed.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Many people who have Food Share work. I hope people know that. The idea that not having Food Share might motivate people to get a job doesn't work for people who already are trying to work.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:58 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Many people who have Food Share work. I hope people know that. The idea that not having Food Share might motivate people to get a job doesn't work for people who already are trying to work.

I'm fairly certain that Majax subscribes to the idea that if you are a part of the working poor that you are no better than the lazy grifters robbing him of his tax dollars that have no job. I haven't read much from him that leads me to believe the notion that one can work, in some locations, 60+ hours a week and still barely make ends meet really enters his mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
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Not saying either option is more moral than the other, just that the hoped-for result may not end up being what happens when folks get hungry.


I was always taught that the moral choice was to be patient and work for what you get rather than stealing. Stealing while easier was considered morally wrong. But I was raised conservative. What do liberals teach there children about such moral questions? That it's all morally relative to the situation or perhaps whether the person stealing was a minority or not?

I find it strange that I'm considered the immoral monster to humanity and yet I seem to be the only one who sees stealing as wrong.

Allow me to be more obvious, then.

To have written, "I'm not saying...", does not mean that I don't have an opinion on the morality of stealing. Only that it was not relevant to the point being made. Clearly, stealing is worse than not stealing in near any normal situation. Also, it's pretty clear to me that if folks get desperate enough, they will likely steal to feed their own family if that family is in any danger of malnutrition or starvation. They'll do that regardless of whatever label - liberal or conservative - that they claim to cling to.

The 'other' point here is that it's not sensible to operate on the standard that unemployed folks should never receive any food assistance on the premise that denying this will somehow motivate them into a waiting job. Common economic sense tells us that 0% unemployment never exists, and we no longer live in a society that allows for impoverished individuals to 'live off the land' in a functional way that simultaneously supports recovery and re-establishment into mainstream society. So there will always be some folks - and their families - that are unemployed for some period and may not be able to purchase what they need to stay in good health.

There's at least one dispassioned advantage to having food assistance available: doing so ensures a certain degree of stability within society by keeping unemployed individuals from having to resort to riot or theft to secure food for their families (and this is not to say that there are not moral reasons aside from dispassionate ones for doing so, obviously). Although, I suppose that one could claim that such an outcome isn't worrisome, since really hungry people - in their weakened state - are easy to chase down, shoot and/or jail, should they become troublesome, therefore reducing their threat. ; )

Regarding your claim of being considered "the immoral monster to humanity" - perhaps folks would not assume this so often if you were not so free in bandying about your claim that an entire group of people that you loosely describe as 'liberals' are incapable of instilling values into themselves or their children.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:54 pm 
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I haven't read much from him that leads me to believe the notion that one can work, in some locations, 60+ hours a week and still barely make ends meet really enters his mind.


If that were true than wages should be higher. So explain to me why we need more unskilled illegal immigrant labor flowing into the country if wages are too low.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Another advantage to SNAP is easily said, as a USDA function, it is a stimulus to the economy, as it increases the amount of money people spend for food. Thus, food producers get more income. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ps/260015/

Unskilled migrant laborers take jobs that American-born citizens refuse to even consider. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... ns/529008/

Have you read Grapes of Wrath?

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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Unskilled migrant laborers take jobs that American-born citizens refuse to even consider.


Perhaps if Americans were hungrier they would reconsider.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
I haven't read much from him that leads me to believe the notion that one can work, in some locations, 60+ hours a week and still barely make ends meet really enters his mind.


If that were true than wages should be higher. So explain to me why we need more unskilled illegal immigrant labor flowing into the country if wages are too low.

Explain to me what is forcing employers to pay these wages. That's the actual question.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:14 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
Unskilled migrant laborers take jobs that American-born citizens refuse to even consider.

Perhaps if Americans were hungrier they would reconsider.

See the addition to my post. What about those who have health conditions which prevent them from picking fast enough to please the bosses, or face physical collapse if circumstances were to force them to take such employment? I suppose you would say that they deserve to starve.

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In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Always Changing wrote:
See the addition to my post. What about those who have health conditions which prevent them from picking fast enough to please the bosses, or face physical collapse if circumstances were to force them to take such employment? I suppose you would say that they deserve to starve.

majax won't say it, so I'll paraphrase him: everyone should choose to remain gainfully employed until death.

(majax, correct me if I'm wrong about that)

Therefore, it follows that if folks - old, disabled, or whatever - cannot work enough to buy the food that they need, and have no other resource, then starvation is an acceptable outcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Quote:
See the addition to my post. What about those who have health conditions which prevent them from picking fast enough to please the bosses, or face physical collapse if circumstances were to force them to take such employment? I suppose you would say that they deserve to starve.


That doesn't mean there aren't people refusing to work because it pays better to collect welfare. Open borders mixed with socialism will continue to seriously degrade the American standard of living.

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This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Quote:
majax won't say it, so I'll paraphrase him: everyone should choose to remain gainfully employed until death.

(majax, correct me if I'm wrong about that)


I had always hoped people could start their own businesses. But yeah, age is no excuse to quit doing what you can to contribute.

Quote:
Therefore, it follows that if folks - old, disabled, or whatever - cannot work enough to buy the food that they need, and have no other resource, then starvation is an acceptable outcome.


This is where you overstate what I'm saying. I don't have a problem helping people that are truly disabled, meaning there is no job in the economy they can perform. Perhaps subsidizing incomes is a better solution that raising the minimum wage.

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This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:10 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
Therefore, it follows that if folks - old, disabled, or whatever - cannot work enough to buy the food that they need, and have no other resource, then starvation is an acceptable outcome.


This is where you overstate what I'm saying. I don't have a problem helping people that are truly disabled, meaning there is no job in the economy they can perform. Perhaps subsidizing incomes is a better solution that raising the minimum wage.

But this is where simple rhetoric no longer suffices, and details and decisions become necessary.

- How do we subsidize income?
- What dollar amounts are we talking?
- Adjusted for age and/or area of residence?
- How is disability to the point of not being able to perform any job in the economy determined?
- How do we insure that moderately disabled folks can get a job or get to one? Or if failure to be hired is because employers simply don't want them, because they perceive a liability?

... and so on.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:15 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
If that were true than wages should be higher. So explain to me why we need more unskilled illegal immigrant labor flowing into the country if wages are too low.

Immigration raises aggregate wages for all but a small segment of the population where studies show that it has either no effect or a slightly negative effect that works out to a few dollars a week.

If you want higher wages, you should encourage immigration, not suppress it. That aside, the real takeaway here is that genuinely didn't know that people do work full time or more than full-time and lack a liveable income. That's reality for some people. How much money you make isn't a simple function of how hard you work.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:44 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
...the real takeaway here is that [you] genuinely didn't know that people do work full time or more than full-time and lack a liveable income. That's reality for some people. How much money you make isn't a simple function of how hard you work.


It's surprising how many people can't get their head round the idea that some employers really do get people to work for them at wages that, after a week's hard full-time work, do not give them enough to live at any semblance of decency. As a result, of course, the goods and services that such people produce can be sold to the Majax at attractive prices - so Majax has the pleasure of abusing the lazy poor while enjoying the cheap fruits of their about.

I mean, that's a win-win, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Chap wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
...the real takeaway here is that [you] genuinely didn't know that people do work full time or more than full-time and lack a liveable income. That's reality for some people. How much money you make isn't a simple function of how hard you work.


It's surprising how many people can't get their head round the idea that some employers really do get people to work for them at wages that, after a week's hard full-time work, do not give them enough to live at any semblance of decency. As a result, of course, the goods and services that such people produce can be sold to the Majax at attractive prices - so Majax has the pleasure of abusing the lazy poor while enjoying the cheap fruits of their about.

I mean, that's a win-win, right?


What if the employer himself is barely scraping by, or worse, in massive debt? How does he pay more?

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

What if the employer himself is barely scraping by, or worse, in massive debt? How does he pay more?

- Doc

Chap was probably mostly referring to large corporations that have considerable profit margins that continue to pay as low a wage as possible. You raise a good point though that many small businesses do struggle to pay what their employees are "worth". I'll note anecdotally that most small to mid-size businesses acknowledge that and try to find other perks to offer, also most people that work for them understand that and do so for other reasons.

There is a reason that some countries are experimenting with basic income stipends and I think that is one solution. I'm probably more in favor of tax breaks filling the gap, but I'm willing to change my mind on that. Frankly, whether business pay enough or not aside, we will need to figure out a basic income strategy that accounts for automation I don't think we have many lawmakers that it has even crossed their minds.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Xenophon wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

What if the employer himself is barely scraping by, or worse, in massive debt? How does he pay more?

- Doc

Chap was probably mostly referring to large corporations that have considerable profit margins that continue to pay as low a wage as possible.

A good illustration of this is the short (two minute) and snappy video at the link below that examines just how much Walmart would have to raise their prices in order to pay their workforce no less than about $15.00 per hour. The amount of the cost increase will probably surprise most folks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAcaeLmybCY

The end result would not only serve to pay their team members what some would arguably call a 'living wage' (a subjective term, for sure) but would also have the secondary effect of paying them enough for most to not fall into the eligibility range of SNAP assistance. You'd think that folks like ajax would be all over this idea, especially given that Walmart - if they were doing this - would not be socializing their payroll cost with everyone in town regardless of being a Walmart customer or not. Walmart's customers, instead, would be fully supporting that workforce through their purchases of adequately-priced products. That seems like a sound conservative principle of being responsible for and compensating others for what you use. Otherwise, isn't Walmart stealing from the larger community that is now expending tax dollars to provide SNAP assistance to Walmart employees that qualify for it based upon their fairly dismal wages?

Another example comes from the fast food industry. If Mickey Dee's had to raise the cost of their burgers and fries to a level that allowed them to keep the same abundant profit levels while also paying their workforce a minimum of 15.00 an hour (this amount chosen only since this matches the Walmart example above), exactly how many fast-food consumers would balk at the minor increase in prices and decide that they no longer wanted to heed their unhealthy cravings? Probably very few, judging by the looks of the general population. : )


Xenophon wrote:
You raise a good point though that many small businesses do struggle to pay what their employees are "worth". I'll note anecdotally that most small to mid-size businesses acknowledge that and try to find other perks to offer, also most people that work for them understand that and do so for other reasons.

Worst case scenario, they could always socialize their debts by declaring bankruptcy. Our esteemed President has used this strategy on 6 occasions to restructure or write off billions of dollars worth of debt that he freely accumulated, while still retaining a significant personal fortune afterwards. Hooray for debt socialization!


Xenophon wrote:
There is a reason that some countries are experimenting with basic income stipends and I think that is one solution. I'm probably more in favor of tax breaks filling the gap, but I'm willing to change my mind on that. Frankly, whether business pay enough or not aside, we will need to figure out a basic income strategy that accounts for automation I don't think we have many lawmakers that it has even crossed their minds.

You're right about this; things are going to get interesting as increased automation takes more human bodies out of the employment picture. Even McDonalds is experimenting with automated order kiosks so that they can study how the results will enable traditional hiring requirements to detach from store deployment in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:01 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
I still think fewer people on food stamps is a win for everyone.

Well, it certainly would help decrease the surplus population.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning: Food Stamp program costs hit 7 year low
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:38 am 
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moksha wrote:
Maxine Waters wrote:
I still think fewer people on food stamps is a win for everyone.

Well, it certainly would help decrease the surplus population.


Aren't we overpopulated, anyway? It's not like Progressive types really care all that much about human lives anyway what with them being for elective abortion and suicide.

- Doc


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