Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

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_Black Moclips
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Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

Post by _Black Moclips »

Great information and posts. I have also struggled with the Mormon version of the afterlife and its discrepancies. There is just a lot that doesn't make sense. Which is why I've turned to other things and teachings in that respect. If there is a God and learning and growth is the point of this life, then it seems the only reasonable and fair option is reincarnation (multiple mortal probations.)
“A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.”
_Inconceivable
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Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

Post by _Inconceivable »

Black Moclips wrote:If there is a God and learning and growth is the point of this life, then it seems the only reasonable and fair option is reincarnation (multiple mortal probations.)

Since you've posted last, I read a book Life before Life by Jim B. Tucker MD. He's the guy who took over Ian Stevenson's research into children's reports of past life memories at the U of V.

The stories are quite thought provoking. Tucker spends a little too much time explaining why many of the histories could not possibly be fraudulant, however, the stories he does relate are quite thought provoking. Some are even pretty disturbing.

For those unaware, over 30 years ago, Dr. Stephenson began interviewing children from all over the world that spoke of past life memories. To date, the U of V has over 2200 cases on file. The astonishing aspect of the research is that birth marks and medical conditions of not a few children coincide with wounds sustained at death, phobias, names of previous family members & friends, homes, possessions. Previous life families are sometimes their own, but others are non-related and live in other towns and cities hundreds of miles away. Most of the children quit speaking of their previous life by the age of 7 and have forgotten much thereafter.

'Moclips, Thanks for mentioning Stevenson several weeks ago. It's an aspect of reincarnation that had not occurred to me before.
_Seven
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Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

Post by _Seven »

Black Moclips wrote:Great information and posts. I have also struggled with the Mormon version of the afterlife and its discrepancies. There is just a lot that doesn't make sense. Which is why I've turned to other things and teachings in that respect. If there is a God and learning and growth is the point of this life, then it seems the only reasonable and fair option is reincarnation (multiple mortal probations.)


Anytime I participate in these threads on heaven/reincarnation/progression between kindgdoms, I can't help but think of a favorite movie "Defending your Life." If you haven't seen it, it's a very funny movie starring Mel Streep and Albert Brooks. Here's a brief summary before you watch the clips.

Albert Brooks wrote, directed, and stars in this philosophical comedy about a man having a hard time making a case for himself in the afterlife. When advertising executive Daniel Miller (Albert Brooks) finds himself in a fatal car crash minutes after taking delivery on a new BMW, he's whisked away to Judgment City, where the recently dead are put on a sort of trial to decide their fate. If in your time on Earth you were able to face your fears and learn from your mistakes, you get to move on to a life in a better world. However, if you didn't, you have to go back to Earth and try again. As he spends the next several days watching various episodes from his life, Daniel gets the impression he doesn't stand much of a chance of moving on -- and his representative, Bob Diamond (Rip Torn), seems to have little confidence in his case. In the meantime, he frequents Judgment City's many restaurants (where the food is delicious and you can eat all you want without gaining an ounce), pays a visit to the Past Life Pavilion, and meets Julia (Meryl Streep), who seems so kind, sweet, and noble that her advancement is practically assured. Daniel and Julia fall in love, but what's going to happen if they don't end up in the same place? Albert Brooks and Meryl Streep make a witty and engaging romantic team in Defending Your Life, and Shirley MacLaine appears in a highly appropriate cameo. ~ Mark Deming, All Movie Guide


Here are some of my favorite scenes from the movie.



This clip is where Daniel meets his attorney that will defend his life so that he is not reincarnated again to earth.
Big Brain
Rip Torn who plays Albert Brook's defending attorney,
could almost be a General Authority in this clip.

Here is the Past Lives Pavillion clip where Shirley McClaine directs the newbies on viewing their previous lives. :lol: (it starts at 2:40)

Instead of "sin", he has to prove he has overcome his fears to progress on. They replay episodes of his life on a movie screen and discuss them in his trial: I like the restraint idea

His blunders


Meryl Streep's character lived a very courageous life of good works and is having a relaxing and pampering experience and is assured she will progress on.
(they fall in love)


You can watch the whole movie on youtube. It's broken into sections starting here and it ends at section 18.

This clip is after "Daniel" has died and is learning about his temporary station.
There is a God
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Inconceivable
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Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

Post by _Inconceivable »

Thanks Seven, I've been meaning to rent Defending your Life for a few years now. I had no interest as a TBM.

Here's a clip from a movie I watched last night:

My Life

When I watched this as a TBM, I just couldn't connect with it as I do now. I really enjoyed the overall message of the movie.

It's interesting how our perceptions change over time.
_Seven
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Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

Post by _Seven »

Inconceivable wrote:Thanks Seven, I've been meaning to rent Defending your Life for a few years now. I had no interest as a TBM.

Here's a clip from a movie I watched last night:

My Life

When I watched this as a TBM, I just couldn't connect with it as I do now. I really enjoyed the overall message of the movie.

It's interesting how our perceptions change over time.


Hi Inconceivable, :smile:
I recall feeling the same way when I watched that scene as a TBM. It's nice to watch that again with an open mind.

"Defending Your life" has been a favorite movie since I first saw it as a teenager. My LDS parents found it hilarious but there were Mormons in our circle who felt it was mocking sacred beliefs and didn't like it. I wanted to tell them to lighten up.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Seven
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Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

Post by _Seven »

Hi Liz, :)
I found some additional quotes by General authorities on Progression you might be interested in.

from here
Some pro progression between kingdoms quotes


“None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].”
-Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855


“Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.” [:lol: so he's saying we can only progress inside our placed kingdom unless we are gifted?]
-Joseph F. Smith, Improvement Era 14:87 [November 1910]



“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.”
-J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3


“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”
-James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421


You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and your daughters. If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity. When Jesus went through that terrible torture on the cross, He saw what would be accomplished by it; He saw that His brethren and sistersCthe sons and daughters of GodCwould be gathered in, with but few exceptionsCthose who committed the unpardonable sin. That sacrifice of the divine Being was effectual to destroy the powers of Satan. I believe that every man and woman who comes into this life and passes through it, that life will be a success in the end. It may not be in this life. It was not with the antedeluvians. They passed through troubles and afflictions; 2,500 years after that, when Jesus went to preach to them, the dead heard the voice of the Son of God and they lived. They found after all that it was a very good thing that they had conformed to the will of God in leaving the spiritual life and passing through this world.

Lorenzo Snow, MS 56:49-53; Collected Discourses 3:364-65.


The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory
celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of
advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be
considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has
been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is
said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by
those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered
unto by those of the terrestrial—that is, those of the higher glory
minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for
all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for
the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of
eternal progression
. Whether or not in the great future, full of so
many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories
after education and advancement within those spheres may at last
emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory
until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the
revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake
more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that
such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the
celestial glory—having before them the privilege also of eternal
progress—have been moving onward, so that the relative distance
between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser
glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of
celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at
the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as
to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where
those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance
into the celestial kingdom—they may arrive where these were, but never
where they are.”

B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.



Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith, and he said, “Listen to this!

“ ‘Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.’ ” 22

“There is never a time
,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.” 23

Boyd K. Packer, “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 18


“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.”
-Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965



It's interesting that there are modern day Prophets who do NOT believe in Progression between Kingdoms because I have noticed several talks by GA's assuring faithful parents that the sealing power will reclaim their apostate or wayward children. That's almost the same thing as stating there will be Progression.

If God were to tell us we could progress between kingdoms and worry about our repentance later, would that be a very effective way of motivating his children to be good? I suspect that even if the brethren believed in it, they would keep it to themselves based on that. Some types of people need religion with a reward system for obeying the rules and fear of hell to drive good works. But are those people really Christians?

This is why I believe religion can hinder (for some people) our development to become like Christ if we are driven to obtain a reward above another for our good works (i.e. Mormons) or fear of hell instead of having charity/pure love of Christ in our hearts. The atheist or agnostic who follows the golden rule, forgives easily, and does acts of kindness and service because of the compassion in their hearts, is more of a Christian than any believer.

D&C 19

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.


If you read this scripture the way I do, it seems to say that God uses eternal damnation threats to motivate and change our hearts but there's not a cut off date for repentance. It's the same technique some parents may do with their own children when they threaten extreme punishments to strike fear in their hearts and motivate a change in behavior.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Amore
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Re: Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

Post by _Amore »

ludwigm wrote:I feel the same.

Our feeling is wrong. It was defined officially.

The word "unconditional" does not appear in the scriptures, says this grinning man below, Russell M. Nelson (of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles), in “Divine Love,” Ensign, Feb 2003, 20.... While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional.

See http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1 for details.

Apparently we (incorrect individuals) want to be better than the Mormon god.

Depends on how you consider "unconditional."
I feel like we're getting picky - but it's good to clarify.

First off, I don't really care how Mormonism defines God. I've already realized it's often filled with cognitive distortions that create anxiety, shame and depression. So, although we are on a Mormon discussion forum, I have moved passed those distorted ideas.

To me, God is the highest love, based on truth.
Love, truth - all relative - based on perspective, eye of the beholder, etc.
But if God is objective truth - all knowing - then all perspectives.
I see God as unconditional love in the sense that "God is no respector of persons" - kind of like how no matter what you drop - gravity applies with no prejudice. And like gravity is a bit unforgiving - you cannot expect truth to be the opposite of what is - if you jump off your roof, you will NOT fly.

So, God may be conditional in the sense that God works based on some laws - our own laws we've figured out nature goes by - and some laws we have yet to understand. Yet, God is unconditional in caring for all life - with no regard for a king over a peasant etc. When I say God, I mean the source of all consciousness - which is in each of us. I won't pretend to know all about God/objective truth/highest love. But this is how I see it now.
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