The Holy Ghost

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Roger

Post by _Gazelam »

Good to see you here my friend. This place could use your soft touch.

In regards to overcomeing difficulties, I read an excellent quote today:

In the dispensations and providences of God to man it seems that we are born to suffer pain, affliction, sorrows and trials; this is what God has decreed that the human family shall pass through; and if we make a right use of this probation, the experience it brings will eventually prove a great blessing to us, and when we receive immortality and eternal life, exaltation, kingdoms, thrones, principalities and powers with all the blessings of the fulness of the gospel of Christ, we shall understand and comprehend why we were called to pass through a continual during the few years we spent in the flesh. - Wilford Woodruff

God knows what we are passing through. I heard a speaker refer to this life as passing through Spook Alley. One of the titles of the Holy Ghost is the Comforter. If we prepare ourselves, he wil be our companion. D&C 14:7-8

7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.
8 And it shall come to pass, that if you shall ask the Father in my name, in faith believing, you shall receive the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance, that you may stand as a witness of the things of which you shall both hear and see, and also that you may declare repentance unto this generation.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_marg

Post by _marg »

Q.W.
Most people are not interested in spending time evaluating evidence that challenges preconceived notions. I’m sure I cannot convince you by what I have found in a short description. If you are genuinely interested, you need to make the determination for yourself.


In general Q.W. I’m not interested in spending much time on farfetched unrealistic ideas. There is only so much time and one must choose how to spend it. I have little interest in whether there is or isn’t an afterlife. It is irrelevant to me.

Q.W:
The fact is, if only one of the millions upon millions of people experiencing what they swear to as afterlife evidence is valid, then the afterlife exists.


It goes even further than that Q.W. Even if no one has experiences of an afterlife…it does not mean there is no afterlife. But it was you, not me, who was using as evidence ‘millions perhaps billions of people have some sort of afterlife experience’ ..so with that many people …the implication was…an afterlife must exist based on numbers.


Q.W.
You say you could see “flaw after flaw in his (Zammit’s) logic”. Perhaps you could provide a couple of flaws? Remember though, just because you don’t agree does not constitute a flaw in logic.


Perhaps, but in another post.

Here is some information you might find interesting, but you will remain unconvinced, I am sure. Like I have stated previously, you need to base your decision on a large sampling of evidence, and it takes much more effort than the brief time you have spent today. The following information constitutes an area of special interest to me, but is overall a very small part of the picture.

Afterlife intelligences tell us that our spiritual development is indicated by the frequency of vibration of our spiritual entities. Quantum physicists have shown that not only light, but all matter has wave properties with inherent vibration. It has been shown experimentally that components of atoms have wave properties and are in a constant state of vibration. This atomic vibration phenomenon is relatively new to physicists, and differs from the molecular/mechanical vibration created by heat. When all heat is removed from an object, the temperature is at absolute zero and all molecular vibration stops. However, vibration of the quantum stuff atoms are made of, continues.


You have not defined “afterlife intelligences, spiritual entities and spiritual development.

Q.W.:
There is an interesting parallel between frequency of vibration and color as described by afterlife intelligences and the molecular vibration and color of physical material. Most of us have seen how a metal object will change color when heated. As the temperature elevates, the molecules of the metal vibrate at increasing frequencies and the color changes from dark red to bright red and then approaches white, giving us the term “white hot”. Afterlife intelligences consistently send the message that the higher developed beings have brighter/whiter appearances which are a function of their frequency of vibration, and that their entire existence is at a much higher vibration.


Who or what are afterlife intelligences? What establishes them as existing?

Quantum physicists have shown that everything in the universe is connected. This was demonstrated in the laboratory by what has been named the “Aspect Experiments”, conducted by Alain Aspect at the Institute of Optics at the University of Paris at Orsay. French physicist Bernard d’ Espagnat stated in Physical Review Letters, 1981, “Experiments have recently been carried out that would have forced Einstein to change his conception of nature on a point he always considered essential…we may safely say that non-separability is now one of the most certain general concepts of physics.” Afterlife intelligences have consistently made statements that we are all connected and we are connected to everything. This information from the afterlife was provided many years before universal connectivity was first postulated by quantum physicists.


You have not established an afterlife. You claim it as if it exists, but you’ve not presented anything to establish it.

Prior to the 20th century, scientists postulated the presence of such a medium and called it “ether”. James Clerk Maxwell stated, “The vast interplanetary and interstellar regions will no longer be regarded as waste places in the universe… We shall find them to be already full of this wonderful medium; so full that no human power can remove it from the smallest portion of space, or produce the slightest flaw in its infinite continuity.” Sir Oliver Joseph Lodge stated, “In the spiritual worlds the Realities of Existence are other and far higher; but still the Ether is made use of in ways which at present we can only surmise.”

The ether theory was rejected by mainstream physicists after 1887 when the Michelson-Morley experiments failed to detect anything resembling ether in space. When Einstein published the special theory of relativity in 1905 which contains the premise that the speed of light remains constant for all observers independent of their frame of reference/relative velocities, this invalidated the results of the Michelson-Morley experiments which were based on the assumption that light would behave and propagate like ordinary waves in material mediums.

The overwhelming majority of astrophysicists have now signed up to the existence of an undefined medium, permeating all space, they call “dark matter”. The existence of dark matter a.k.a. ether or any such thing permeating all of space has not been physically detected, and therefore does not submit to the scientific method. Nonetheless, mainstream scientists are signing on, due to the undeniable evidence. The evidence for the existence of dark matter was arrived at sometime in the last decade of the 20th century resulting from the difference of mass of the universe from theoretical calculations and numbers resulting from direct measurement. The direct measurement number was one-third of the theoretical, so the theoreticians told the direct measurement physicists to keep measuring until they got it right. They never did, and the community of scientists placed more confidence in the theory, which leads to the conclusion that at least two-thirds of the total mass of the universe consists of this invisible dark matter.


Q.W…whether there is ether or dark matter does not establish the existence of an afterlife.

skipping to this point…

Given the ubiquitous nature of this ethereal substance called “dark matter”, and since this substance seems to own the same general attributes of non-detectability as the ethereal substance human spirits are comprised of, it logically follows that our spirits are comprised of this “dark matter” in the same relationship our physical bodies are comprised of earthly matter, which is actually star material of our physical universe. Simply put, our spiritual bodies are related to ethereal dark matter just as our physical bodies are related to physical matter.


It doesn’t logically follow that “our spirits are comprised of this “dark matter”. To begin with “spirits" has not been defined and established by you in your presentation to me.

The afterlife intelligences tell us repeatedly that “time in the afterlife has no meaning”. They have stated that beings in the afterlife dwell in the “now” which includes the past and the future. This is mind boggling, but is a consistent message. Quantum physicists have determined that the quantum stuff comprising atomic structure is timeless, i.e., is eternally unchanged. This is a similarity related to afterlife information that states that nothing ages in the realms of the afterlife.


Your statements are claims without any basis in fact and these claims are linked with science in an apparent attempt to give them respectability and be accepted.
_Quantumwave
_Emeritus
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:35 pm

Post by _Quantumwave »

Hi Marg,

Your post essentially states that there is no absolute proof of the afterlife, and I totally agree.

For further discussion, I would suggest you take a look at the thread I started on the Terrestrial forum under The Afterlife! Is It Possible?. I feel I have hijacked Gaz's Holy Ghost thread way too long and I apologize to Gaz.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Quantumwave wrote:Hi Marg,

Your post essentially states that there is no absolute proof of the afterlife, and I totally agree.

For further discussion, I would suggest you take a look at the thread I started on the Terrestrial forum under The Afterlife! Is It Possible?. I feel I have hijacked Gaz's Holy Ghost thread way too long and I apologize to Gaz.


My post was not about there being no absolute proof. My post was that you used various words which were not defined and established, you assumed those words as fact and then linked those words to science when there was no causal link established.

Science doesn't expect absolute proof. I don't expect absolute proof for all ideas, but I do expect if I'm going to consider ideas seriously, more than what you provided as an explanation for a reality of an afterlife.
_Gazelam
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Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

Proof is available, but you have to fulfill the requirements.

If you want an answer to prayer, you have to pray with real intent.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_MormonMendacity
_Emeritus
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:56 am

Post by _MormonMendacity »

Gazelam wrote:Proof is available, but you have to fulfill the requirements.

If you want an answer to prayer, you have to pray with real intent.

Gaz

You really need to stop doing this.

How much "real intent"? Is a cup enough? Will 23 pounds do it? How about the letter "H", is that enough "real intent" to get the answer?

Moroni 10: 4&5 lists a lot of rules to make caveats about getting a reliable (read "the Mormon") answer.
1. if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them -- Caveat: it might not be wisdom in god.
2. remember how merciful the Lord hath been -- Caveat: you don't remember how merciful he's been
3. unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and -- Problem: It assumes facts not in evidence -- or even realistic!
4. ponder it in your hearts. -- Caveat: failing to ponder might make you not get the right answer.
5. ask God, the Eternal Father -- Problem: assumes a belief not supported by any facts. Why not ask any of the other gods out there?
6. in the name of Christ -- Well okay, seems unnecessary, and see Item 5...
7. if these things are not true; -- That one seems pretty straight forward...
8. if ye shall ask with a sincere heart -- Caveat: maybe your heart is not sincere...
9. with real intent -- Caveat: can I get a specific volume of "intent" that constitutes "real"?
10. having faith in Christ -- OH MY GOSH! See 5 & 6!
11. he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. -- Caveat: No explanation about what that "manifestation" will be. Joseph's First Vision? Warm feeling? A voice? Yer on your own as to what that "manifestation" will be.
12. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. -- Uh-huh. Sure can. Like Kinderhook plates, Hoffman forgeries, revealed temple ceremonies that then get changed... Yup. Truth of "all things".

The "promise" is so riddled with conditions and caveats that every counter-testimony can be easily explained...just like you did.
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
_Polygamy Porter
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Post by _Polygamy Porter »

Image
_MormonMendacity
_Emeritus
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:56 am

Post by _MormonMendacity »

Polygamy Porter wrote:Image

Joseph Smith wrote:Okay...but answer the question: Are my TRANSLATIONS of them accurate?
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
_Charity1
_Emeritus
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:19 am

Re: The Holy Ghost

Post by _Charity1 »

The Holy Ghost impregnated Mary and she was fairly OK to look at, official Mormon doctrine says that the father is not the holy ghost and is a separate man, What's up with that doctrine? Read D&C 36:2

The only true and living god, that would be 1 GOD whose essence ( intelligence ) ( holy ghost ) ( spirit ) created all things including us Worlds without end and sent a part of that essence into a baby in the womb of Mary so that that baby grown Jesus Christ could redeem us if we would let him. For they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them. For now we see through a glass darkly but then face to face. Get away from the precepts of men especially those who were not speaking with the holy ghost as their guide and follow the teachings of Christ.

Give peace a chance. Anything more or less than this is not of me. Love you all
_Tobin
_Emeritus
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Re:

Post by _Tobin »

MormonMendacity wrote:
Gazelam wrote:Proof is available, but you have to fulfill the requirements.

If you want an answer to prayer, you have to pray with real intent.

Gazelam

You really need to stop doing this.

How much "real intent"? Is a cup enough? Will 23 pounds do it? How about the letter "H", is that enough "real intent" to get the answer?

Moroni 10: 4&5 lists a lot of rules to make caveats about getting a reliable (read "the Mormon") answer.
1. if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them -- Caveat: it might not be wisdom in god.
2. remember how merciful the Lord hath been -- Caveat: you don't remember how merciful he's been
3. unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and -- Problem: It assumes facts not in evidence -- or even realistic!
4. ponder it in your hearts. -- Caveat: failing to ponder might make you not get the right answer.
5. ask God, the Eternal Father -- Problem: assumes a belief not supported by any facts. Why not ask any of the other gods out there?
6. in the name of Christ -- Well okay, seems unnecessary, and see Item 5...
7. if these things are not true; -- That one seems pretty straight forward...
8. if ye shall ask with a sincere heart -- Caveat: maybe your heart is not sincere...
9. with real intent -- Caveat: can I get a specific volume of "intent" that constitutes "real"?
10. having faith in Christ -- OH MY GOSH! See 5 & 6!
11. he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. -- Caveat: No explanation about what that "manifestation" will be. Joseph's First Vision? Warm feeling? A voice? Yer on your own as to what that "manifestation" will be.
12. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. -- Uh-huh. Sure can. Like Kinderhook plates, Hoffman forgeries, revealed temple ceremonies that then get changed... Yup. Truth of "all things".

The "promise" is so riddled with conditions and caveats that every counter-testimony can be easily explained...just like you did.


Manifest means to demonstrate. If God shows up and tells you the Book of Mormon is true, then I'd go with that. If not, then I wouldn't. I think you are making Moroni's Promise difficult to understand. It is rather clear if you spend a moment thinking about it.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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