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 Post subject: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:49 am 
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The Trinity taught by Joseph Smith

2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. [Joseph Smith translation]

Moses 1:6
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

COUNSEL GIVEN BY PRESIDENT CHARLES W. PENROSE

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." Well, what is the fulness of the gospel? You read carefully the revelation regarding the three glories, Section 76, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and you find there defined what the gospel is. There God, the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his Son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three Persons in the Trinity—the one God, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principles, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: If you really believe so as to have faith in our Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, and will hear him, you will learn ail about what is needed to be done for the salvation of the living and redemption of the dead.

. (General Conference Report, April 1922, pp. 27-28.)

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:12 am 
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How would the world look differently if the trinity were a unity?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:36 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
How would the world look differently if the trinity were a unity?


Perhaps it should be remembered that the Trinity is a unity, that is the whole point of the idea.

Now Mormons sometimes (usually) think they became a unity while the rest of Christendom believes they have always been a unity. I do not see Mittens addressing this difference and as a result his quotes could reflect current Mormon belief and Baptist belief as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:54 am 
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I don't see a trinity as adding any value or information. Just a way of reorganizing perception.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:25 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
I don't see a trinity as adding any value or information. Just a way of reorganizing perception.

Muksutov.
Yes, the trinity is an idea resulting from organizing stories and ideas in Christianity. I wouldn't expect you to want to get all involved in the idea one way or the other. I was holding the question up because I was puzzled as to what point Mittens was trying to pursue.
.....
I quoted you here because your comments are more direct and to your point.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:33 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
Muksutov.
Yes, the trinity is an idea resulting from organizing stories and ideas in Christianity. I wouldn't expect you to want to get all involved in the idea one way or the other. I was holding the question up because I was puzzled as to what point Mittens was trying to pursue.
.....
I quoted you here because your comments are more direct and to your point.


Looks like a ploy for generating employment for theologians. Like arguing over the Sabbath or what we can eat. Really important, deep stuff to divide and exclude, focusing on minutiae and trivia while the whole universe waits to be explored. :lol: Kind of like what Saul Bellow says in my sig.

It was used apparently as justification for the Eastern and Roman churches going to war against each other. Politics masked as theology, IMO. A wedge issue with benefits. :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:30 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Looks like a ploy for generating employment for theologians. Like arguing over the Sabbath or what we can eat. Really important, deep stuff to divide and exclude, focusing on minutiae and trivia while the whole universe waits to be explored. :lol: Kind of like what Saul Bellow says in my sig.

It was used apparently as justification for the Eastern and Roman churches going to war against each other. Politics masked as theology, IMO. A wedge issue with benefits. :cool:


Maksutov, the trinity distinction for Roman, Orthodox Church is small and subtle. I doubt very many people care about it. There were other differences which people did care about. Differences on large scale organization effects things people care about. Who is actual leader, who was holy roman emperor, what language was spoken, who had more control of commerce all leads to that most fundamental matter, who gets the most money. I suppose this all may be what you meant about politics masked as theology.

You live among SDA? I do not know anybody else who care about what to eat and what time is Sabbath.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:52 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Looks like a ploy for generating employment for theologians. Like arguing over the Sabbath or what we can eat. Really important, deep stuff to divide and exclude, focusing on minutiae and trivia while the whole universe waits to be explored. :lol: Kind of like what Saul Bellow says in my sig.

It was used apparently as justification for the Eastern and Roman churches going to war against each other. Politics masked as theology, IMO. A wedge issue with benefits. :cool:


Maksutov, the trinity distinction for Roman, Orthodox Church is small and subtle. I doubt very many people care about it. There were other differences which people did care about. Differences on large scale organization effects things people care about. Who is actual leader, who was holy roman emperor, what language was spoken, who had more control of commerce all leads to that most fundamental matter, who gets the most money. I suppose this all may be what you meant about politics masked as theology.

You live among SDA? I do not know anybody else who care about what to eat and what time is Sabbath.


It's about power. Always.

And food? Well...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_dietary_laws

And as to the power of the Sabbath, when 4th of July falls on Sunday, when is it celebrated? Do all Christians reach a consensus about it? We still have groups and businesses that make a very big deal about it. Like Chick Fil-A and my local tax and fee supported community rec center that closes on Sunday without apology.

Back to the trinity. Isn't it true that there are Christians who don't recognize the trinity at all? And not just in the early years. The 3 in 1 paradox doesn't fly everywhere in X-land. All Christians don't subscribe to the various Creeds. And they often call eachother names over it and back during the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Wars of Religion, they murdered eachother cheerfully and piously with an eternal reward assured, over what flavor of Christian they were.

So in the OP we're supposed to be aware of how Smith's trinity position changed over time. Perhaps this is supposed to be a sign of heresy but it could also be continuous revelation. Just piling one absurdity on another, which theology certainly allows for. :lol:

My questions are, "what difference does it actually make in our lives, here and now? Why does it matter? Does it matter? What should matter instead?" :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Like Chick Fil-A and my local tax and fee supported community rec center that closes on Sunday without apology.

Keeping things open and closed on Sunday is for a variety of reasons, for instance, the City of Provo, Utah found that golf courses should be kept open on Sunday because members of the Lord's Church conduct business on the courses, however, the Provo Municipal Pool was closed on Sunday because it was determined that Satan ruled the waters.

Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Maksukov, the main idea of the trinity is that Jesus death on the cross was God himself suffering for us and not just some unlucky bloke. It underlines the idea that we are to help and respect each other even to the point of being willing to suffer for each other. The human enterprise is not so much a contest or test of who gets the most prizes but a whole family helping each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:27 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Maksukov, the main idea of the trinity is that Jesus death on the cross was God himself suffering for us and not just some unlucky bloke. It underlines the idea that we are to help and respect each other even to the point of being willing to suffer for each other. The human enterprise is not so much a contest or test of who gets the most prizes but a whole family helping each other.


I don't get any of that out of a "holy trinity". I don't think it adds anything but a metaphor that the faithful accept literally and are thereby more confused by. Altruism and humanity were taught long before Christ and in other places. No barbaric display of a bloody "atonement" is necessary for human improvement any more than ripping out someone's heart to assure that the Sun rises. :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:16 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:

I don't get any of that out of a "holy trinity". I don't think it adds anything but a metaphor that the faithful accept literally and are thereby more confused by. Altruism and humanity were taught long before Christ and in other places. No barbaric display of a bloody "atonement" is necessary for human improvement any more than ripping out someone's heart to assure that the Sun rises. :rolleyes:

Maksukov,

Of course altruism and humanity were observed to be important to our humanness long before Jesus. People would naturally teach it. It would to my mind be absurd to imagine God creating people without those and then try to switch foundations in the middle of history. All of Jesus teachings rely upon our recognizing what he says within ourselves.

The trinity is a church conclusion from what they understood happened with Jesus. It has been kept to help hold those understandings together. It is a reference point. I would not imaging it could work the other way around , you would not be able to derive the Christian story from the bare idea of the trinity.

The atonement has little to nothing to do with Aztec sacrifice. I can see common ground with the Plains Indian Sun Dance(personal endurance and sacrifice to increase the spiritual strength of the community)
,,,,,,,,,

Previous post you noted that not all Christian groups are Trinitarian. This is true but, so? The LDS are the largest such group and they are closer to Trinitarian than the other groups. I think the Trinity makes a more coherent picture of Christian ideas so Christian groups tend in that direction.

You complain that some Christian people have some different food ideas. Sorry I cannot find anyplace to care. In my area we do have a large Seventh Day Adventist population. Because they have Sabbath on Saturday people who want Sunday off from work can trade with those who want Saturday off. That Sabbath difference can work out rather nicely.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:56 pm 
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It's quite all right for you to have funny numerical games with your religion. It's traditional. Numerology and other worldviews assign supernatural attributes to numbers. It's about as irrational as most of the rest of it. :lol: But somehow the thought of the trinity provides illumination or inspiration or comfort to some folks.

I'm not complaining about religion. Who would I complain to? God? All religious people? No, I prefer to point out things that amuse and enlighten me. My sense of humor does intrude at times. :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:03 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
How would the world look differently if the trinity were a unity?

Perhaps it should be remembered that the Trinity is a unity, that is the whole point of the idea.

Now Mormons sometimes (usually) think they became a unity while the rest of Christendom believes they have always been a unity. I do not see Mittens addressing this difference and as a result his quotes could reflect current Mormon belief and Baptist belief as well.

A Baptist or any other denomination would not teach this :

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:50 pm 
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Mittens, I am quite sure you are correct. I do not know what point you are trying to make however. Where did you wish to go with this?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:24 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Mittens, I am quite sure you are correct. I do not know what point you are trying to make however. Where did you wish to go with this?

Mormons teach many gods, Christianity teaches ONE GOD

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:28 pm 
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Quote:
Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.


Here is the 1830 edition of Mormon 7:7:

7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day, hath it given unto them to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which is one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

https://carm.org/religious-movements/Mormonism/Mormon

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... n-1830/537

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:32 am 
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Mittens wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Mittens, I am quite sure you are correct. I do not know what point you are trying to make however. Where did you wish to go with this?

Mormons teach many gods, Christianity teaches ONE GOD

:wink:
What difference does this make in the world of real people?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:59 pm 
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According to Jesus that was the greatest command, that's why :lol:


Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: "

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:54 am 
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Mittens wrote:
According to Jesus that was the greatest command, that's why :lol:


Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: "


And I repeat:
What difference does this make in the world of real people?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith's Trinity
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:43 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
Mittens wrote:
According to Jesus that was the greatest command, that's why :lol:


Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: "


And I repeat:
What difference does this make in the world of real people?


Jesus thought it was important

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