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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:44 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
The vast MAJORITY of fossils found throughout the world are not possible except under very select conditions. If an animal dies and lays out in the open, it is consumed. There were no fossils found of victims of the Titanic --- just empty shoes and that was all even by the 1990's (not even 80 years after the sinking). Uniformatarians basically were men who wanted to prove the Flood never happened. Their belief was that the Grand Canyon was the result of the river wearing away the rock of millions and millions of years. We now know that there was a trapped lake that suddenly emptied and this is what eroded the land and formed the canyon.

A simple energy calculation would help here Nipper. Take that lake and calculate the potential energy of that volume of water held to the height at which it sits. Then calculate the energy required to erode the solid rock by the volume of rock carried away from the Grand Canyon. Let me know how that goes for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:03 am 
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Thankfully, some Christians take umbrage at the young earth variety of Christian faith. See the following links for an argument in favor of uniformitarianism based upon faith in the Bible itself. Poor Nipper rejected by his own. Oh look, a fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah in Nipper. And we all thought it referred to Jesus. :rolleyes:

https://biologos.org/blogs/archive/the- ... ism-part-1
https://biologos.org/blogs/guest/the-bi ... ism-part-2

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:41 am 
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spotlight wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
The vast MAJORITY of fossils found throughout the world are not possible except under very select conditions. If an animal dies and lays out in the open, it is consumed. There were no fossils found of victims of the Titanic --- just empty shoes and that was all even by the 1990's (not even 80 years after the sinking). Uniformatarians basically were men who wanted to prove the Flood never happened. Their belief was that the Grand Canyon was the result of the river wearing away the rock of millions and millions of years. We now know that there was a trapped lake that suddenly emptied and this is what eroded the land and formed the canyon.

A simple energy calculation would help here Nipper. Take that lake and calculate the potential energy of that volume of water held to the height at which it sits. Then calculate the energy required to erode the solid rock by the volume of rock carried away from the Grand Canyon. Let me know how that goes for you.


My you have chosen a hard path there spotlight. How in the world are you or we going to calculate the energy required to erode the grand canyon. I might add that Nippers imaginary lake is as big as it needs to be. It should be calculable how much energy lake Bonneville dropping five thousand feet would release. What percentage of that would be moving rock?

When Lake Bonneville broke releasing large amounts of water it went down the Snake river through Hells canyon. Hells canyon is much closer to a single v shape gulch because of that. The fact that that the grand canyon of the Colorado is widely branched with side canyons proves it was not formed by a sudden lake emptying.

Central Washington state has a much better example of large floods digging big canyons. The one to the North of where I live is ten miles wide and a couple of hundred feet deep. The flood waters continued down the Columbia to the ocean. That channel cuts off side canyons carving a single trough shape due to the large volume of water.

The shape of a canyon fits the process which formed it.

Lets try to be simpler. There is a small stream a couple of blocks from my house. It flows out of the nearby mountains where in it has cut a canyon some two thousand five hundred feet deep through basalt rock. The start of the canyon is a ridge top with a stream flowing in the opposite direction toward the Snake river. There is no room for lakes or big water flows. Instead you have a small stream. To have carved the canyon since Noah time it would have to be cutting some five inches a year. I have known the stream and canyon for fifty years. If that rate was continuing there would be some 20 feet carved away in the stream bed. The real carving is too small to be visible.

Talking about the grand canyon misses the point entirely. The west is full of thousands of canyons whose depth shows erosion taking place over millions of years.


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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:02 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
spotlight wrote:
A simple energy calculation would help here Nipper. Take that lake and calculate the potential energy of that volume of water held to the height at which it sits. Then calculate the energy required to erode the solid rock by the volume of rock carried away from the Grand Canyon. Let me know how that goes for you.

My you have chosen a hard path there spotlight. How in the world are you or we going to calculate the energy required to erode the grand canyon. I might add that Nippers imaginary lake is as big as it needs to be. It should be calculable how much energy lake Bonneville dropping five thousand feet would release. What percentage of that would be moving rock?

When Lake Bonneville broke releasing large amounts of water it went down the Snake river through Hells canyon. Hells canyon is much closer to a single v shape gulch because of that. The fact that that the grand canyon of the Colorado is widely branched with side canyons proves it was not formed by a sudden lake emptying.

Central Washington state has a much better example of large floods digging big canyons. The one to the North of where I live is ten miles wide and a couple of hundred feet deep. The flood waters continued down the Columbia to the ocean. That channel cuts off side canyons carving a single trough shape due to the large volume of water.

The shape of a canyon fits the process which formed it.

Lets try to be simpler. There is a small stream a couple of blocks from my house. It flows out of the nearby mountains where in it has cut a canyon some two thousand five hundred feet deep through basalt rock. The start of the canyon is a ridge top with a stream flowing in the opposite direction toward the Snake river. There is no room for lakes or big water flows. Instead you have a small stream. To have carved the canyon since Noah time it would have to be cutting some five inches a year. I have known the stream and canyon for fifty years. If that rate was continuing there would be some 20 feet carved away in the stream bed. The real carving is too small to be visible.

Talking about the grand canyon misses the point entirely. The west is full of thousands of canyons whose depth shows erosion taking place over millions of years.

Here is another scientific solution:

https://answersingenesis.org/geology/gr ... nyon-form/


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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:13 am 
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Nipper, you completely avoided or perhaps just didn't read my point. I will try again. I did read your link and it did discuss the flood in my area which I am familiar with.

from your link"

"Catastrophic geologic events are not generally part of the uniformitarian geologist’s thinking, but rather include events that are local or regional in size. One example of a regional event would be the 15,000 square miles (39,000 square km) of the Channeled Scablands in eastern Washington. Initially thought to be the product of slow gradual processes, this first came into question in 1923 when J. Harlen Bretz presented a paper to the Geological Society of America suggesting the Scablands were eroded catastrophically.18 For the next 30 years Bretz was ridiculed for his theory, but in 1956 additional information was presented supporting the idea. Over the next 20 years, the evidence was pieced together to show the Scablands were, in fact, catastrophically eroded by the “Spokane Flood.”19 This Spokane flood was the result of the breaching of an ice dam that had created glacial Lake Missoula. Today, the United States Geological Survey estimates the flood released 500 cubic miles (2,000 cubic km) of water, which drained in as little as 48 hours, gouging out millions of tons of solid rock. "

What I was considering is that the shape of the erosion in these channels cut by this massive repeating flood is entirely different from the grand canyon. They are very broad, shallow and with a floor which is generally flat with scatter pothole shapes gouged out. This is result of two considerations. First the Basalt rock is hard and does not wash away easily. In fact most of the erosion is limited to non rock soil and sand layers elsewhere on top of the basalt. Second a large volume of water does not cut a narrow path like a canyon because being large it spreads out over a wide area.

Basalt, which as shown does not wash away easily even with huge amounts of water is the material of the Blue Mountains in southeastern Washington state. The canyon I was describing being very familiar with is cut through this rock by a small stream. I could consider a side canyon in which a a smaller stream has cut its own canyon. This smaller stream is the sort you can hop over and dries up at the end of August.

The canyons in these mountains are above the path of the Spokane floods. They start at the top of the mountains and have no basin to draw any large amounts of water from. They drain the snow and rain falling on the mountain itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:22 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
My you have chosen a hard path there spotlight. How in the world are you or we going to calculate the energy required to erode the grand canyon. I might add that Nippers imaginary lake is as big as it needs to be. It should be calculable how much energy lake Bonneville dropping five thousand feet would release. What percentage of that would be moving rock?

When Lake Bonneville broke releasing large amounts of water it went down the Snake river through Hells canyon. Hells canyon is much closer to a single v shape gulch because of that. The fact that that the grand canyon of the Colorado is widely branched with side canyons proves it was not formed by a sudden lake emptying.

Central Washington state has a much better example of large floods digging big canyons. The one to the North of where I live is ten miles wide and a couple of hundred feet deep. The flood waters continued down the Columbia to the ocean. That channel cuts off side canyons carving a single trough shape due to the large volume of water.

The shape of a canyon fits the process which formed it.

Lets try to be simpler. There is a small stream a couple of blocks from my house. It flows out of the nearby mountains where in it has cut a canyon some two thousand five hundred feet deep through basalt rock. The start of the canyon is a ridge top with a stream flowing in the opposite direction toward the Snake river. There is no room for lakes or big water flows. Instead you have a small stream. To have carved the canyon since Noah time it would have to be cutting some five inches a year. I have known the stream and canyon for fifty years. If that rate was continuing there would be some 20 feet carved away in the stream bed. The real carving is too small to be visible.

Talking about the grand canyon misses the point entirely. The west is full of thousands of canyons whose depth shows erosion taking place over millions of years.


How about a simple comparison then, say the Missoula glacial lake.

from wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Missoula

We have 20,000 cubic miles of water removing 50 cubic miles of material.

The Grand Canyon had 1009 cubic miles of material removed so that would require 403,600 cubic miles of water to do the job. That's two thirds the volume of the Gulf of Mexico.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:04 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
[
How about a simple comparison then, say the Missoula glacial lake.

from wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Missoula

We have 20,000 cubic miles of water removing 50 cubic miles of material.

The Grand Canyon had 1009 cubic miles of material removed so that would require 403,600 cubic miles of water to do the job. That's two thirds the volume of the Gulf of Mexico.


Spotlight, that makes an interesting and worthwhile estimate to consider. It makes a point but I could add that it is likely to be seriously underestimating the needed water. Much of the material removed in the Spokane floods was not solid rock but instead either gravels from the glaciers or loose dust and sands. The areas eroded in eastern Washington are broad layers of basalt covered in over 100 feet of loose soil(gone in the flood paths). That oose material is volcanic ash mixed with windblown sand and dust. Water moves that windblown material comparitively easily, the basalt is resistant. In fact it is worth considering how little water will move solid rock that it is not able to get underneath. The water flows over the top and the rock stays put unless it is broken into pieces which can be pushed along by the water.(as in loose stones in a stream bed which wash down stream)
..
Adding, I do not mean to say that solid basalt layers did not get removed. Some did.


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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:51 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Spotlight, that makes an interesting and worthwhile estimate to consider. It makes a point but I could add that it is likely to be seriously underestimating the needed water.

I have to err on Nipper's side otherwise he will cry foul. So even seriously underestimating it looks ridiculous. Maybe Nipper will rejoin with his worn defense of lack of belief in uniformitarianism? You used to be able to fit more water into less volume in the past "don't ya know."

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:45 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
My you have chosen a hard path there spotlight. How in the world are you or we going to calculate the energy required to erode the grand canyon. I might add that Nippers imaginary lake is as big as it needs to be. It should be calculable how much energy lake Bonneville dropping five thousand feet would release. What percentage of that would be moving rock?

When Lake Bonneville broke releasing large amounts of water it went down the Snake river through Hells canyon. Hells canyon is much closer to a single v shape gulch because of that. The fact that that the grand canyon of the Colorado is widely branched with side canyons proves it was not formed by a sudden lake emptying.

Central Washington state has a much better example of large floods digging big canyons. The one to the North of where I live is ten miles wide and a couple of hundred feet deep. The flood waters continued down the Columbia to the ocean. That channel cuts off side canyons carving a single trough shape due to the large volume of water.

The shape of a canyon fits the process which formed it.

Lets try to be simpler. There is a small stream a couple of blocks from my house. It flows out of the nearby mountains where in it has cut a canyon some two thousand five hundred feet deep through basalt rock. The start of the canyon is a ridge top with a stream flowing in the opposite direction toward the Snake river. There is no room for lakes or big water flows. Instead you have a small stream. To have carved the canyon since Noah time it would have to be cutting some five inches a year. I have known the stream and canyon for fifty years. If that rate was continuing there would be some 20 feet carved away in the stream bed. The real carving is too small to be visible.

Talking about the grand canyon misses the point entirely. The west is full of thousands of canyons whose depth shows erosion taking place over millions of years.

Here is another scientific solution: https://answersingenesis.org/geology/gr ... nyon-form/


I spent a little time going over some of the proposals on this site and wanted to make two posts about it. The first is positive, I would like to reconsider some of my comments about sudden flooding.

The link describes some of the complexity in the grand canyon. It presents several views of the history of the river and uncertainties about how it cuts the high plateau between the east and west end of the canyon.
The article suggests that rapid emptying of large upstream lakes could contribute to the process. I tried second opinions from geological sites and found discussion of that as a possibility.

I am not extensively familiar with the canyon unlike the canyons in my home region. I have visited it a few times. I also have a clear memory of what it looks like flying over it at 26000 ft. From that angle the width of the upper canyon contrasts greatly with the narrow lower canyon. Perhaps that wide upper canyon is related to an event or events with large volumes of water. I am not making a conclusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Nippers site had a bit of discussion about Mt St Helens, Nipper you pointed that out above.

I am truly puzzled why anyone would think rapid erosion after the eruption would be surprising or indicate any new information about how long canyons take to erode. It is well known, perhaps obvious that the rate of erosion can vary greatly. There are many examples of rapid erosion. The speed varies with the hardness or softness of the material eroded. It varies with the amount of water and the speed of the water. With Mt St Helens there was deep layers of ash pumice and broken rock and gravel sitting on a steep slope with no roots from brush and trees to hold it down , in a rainy climate . There was natural fear that rapid erosion would cause serious problems downstream including clogging shipping on the Columbia river at Portland.

I see no indication that erosion at Mt St Helens was other than expected.


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 Post subject: Re: Born Again
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:38 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Nippers site had a bit of discussion about Mt St Helens, Nipper you pointed that out above.

I am truly puzzled why anyone would think rapid erosion after the eruption would be surprising or indicate any new information about how long canyons take to erode. It is well known, perhaps obvious that the rate of erosion can vary greatly. There are many examples of rapid erosion. The speed varies with the hardness or softness of the material eroded. It varies with the amount of water and the speed of the water. With Mt St Helens there was deep layers of ash pumice and broken rock and gravel sitting on a steep slope with no roots from brush and trees to hold it down , in a rainy climate . There was natural fear that rapid erosion would cause serious problems downstream including clogging shipping on the Columbia river at Portland.

I see no indication that erosion at Mt St Helens was other than expected.


It's called "Creation Science", Huck. I know, I know. :lol:

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