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 Post subject: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Does anyone have a link where researchers have found of 18th and 19th century books that use names found in the Book of Mormon, besides the Bible obviously?

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:24 pm 
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I don't know which book it's in, but this may be the map to which you're referring:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:19 am 
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Thanks Dr. Shades. I considered showing my father, but I doubt he'd appreciate it much.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:04 pm 
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The standard Mormon rebuttal to this map makes a fair point that the locations of Book of Mormon places are shown all wrong in it. Jacobugath is supposed to be way up north, not down south, and so on.

So in fact Smith did not just copy-paste the map of his own region and change a few syllables. Suggesting that he did was overplaying the skeptical hand, and pushing it too far like that unfortunately tends to obscure the more serious point that a lot of Book of Mormon place names sound suspiciously like slight alterations of place names that Smith would have known.

There's no clear reason why he would have to copy a real-world map. Tolkien found no need to make Middle-Earth by renaming the towns of Oxfordshire; he was capable of keeping an entirely fictional geography straight, as he wrote about it, by just making a sketch map.

Coming up with fictional place names that sound good, on the other hand, isn't easy. Nobody would have watched Dorothy travel to see the Wizard of Blaws. Leaning a little on real-world places is a natural temptation when you have to come up with a whole bunch of place names at once. Did Smith do that? Maybe.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Let's not lower our standards. The map theory is complete garbage.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:47 pm 
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Quote:
Lehi is from the Old Testament, Judges 15:9,14 and 19.
Nephi is from the King James Version of the Apocrypha, II Maccabees 1:36.
Enos is taken from Genesis 4:26.
Zenos was in use prior to the Book of Mormon as a person's name. Zenos Riggs is listed in the 1873 Hanover, New Jersey census. Zenos Gurley, Sr., was born in 1801 at Bridgewater, New York, and later joined Mormonism. There is also Zenas in the New Testament, Titus 3:13.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/bomnames.htm

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"The Apocrypha was included in the King James Version of 1611, but by 1629 some English Bibles began to appear without it, and since the early part of the 19th century it has been excluded from almost all protestant Bibles... it is apparent that controversy was still raging as to the value of the Apocrypha at the time the Prophet began his ministry." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, page 41)

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no89.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:04 am 
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Brackite wrote:
Quote:
Lehi is from the Old Testament, Judges 15:9,14 and 19.
Nephi is from the King James Version of the Apocrypha, II Maccabees 1:36.
Enos is taken from Genesis 4:26.
Zenos was in use prior to the Book of Mormon as a person's name. Zenos Riggs is listed in the 1873 Hanover, New Jersey census. Zenos Gurley, Sr., was born in 1801 at Bridgewater, New York, and later joined Mormonism. There is also Zenas in the New Testament, Titus 3:13.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/bomnames.htm

Quote:
"The Apocrypha was included in the King James Version of 1611, but by 1629 some English Bibles began to appear without it, and since the early part of the 19th century it has been excluded from almost all protestant Bibles... it is apparent that controversy was still raging as to the value of the Apocrypha at the time the Prophet began his ministry." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, page 41)

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no89.htm

Brackite you are the king of research. Thank you so much for finding that.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:33 am 
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ajax18 wrote:
Brackite you are the king of research. Thank you so much for finding that.

You are welcome, ajax!!

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:07 pm 
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Funny how "NHM" has to be Nahom but the rest of the name similarities are just a coincidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:45 pm 
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I brought up the fact that Nephi wasn't an original name to my mother an things couldn't have gone worse. She just launched into a verbal assault on my character. She can't bear the though that I won't be with them in eternity. It really hurts for her to take it this way because I'm not the type to be disloyal to my family. No reasoning, just raw emotion from her. You can't have God and the afterlife if you don't believe the Mormon message according to her.

I have to admit the pressure to conform in beliefs is immense. It never really was my decision. It hurts like hell and I'm an independent adult. Imagine when I was dependent upon them for everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:22 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
I brought up the fact that Nephi wasn't an original name to my mother an things couldn't have gone worse. She just launched into a verbal assault on my character. She can't bear the though that I won't be with them in eternity. It really hurts for her to take it this way because I'm not the type to be disloyal to my family. No reasoning, just raw emotion from her. You can't have God and the afterlife if you don't believe the Mormon message according to her.

I have to admit the pressure to conform in beliefs is immense. It never really was my decision. It hurts like hell and I'm an independent adult. Imagine when I was dependent upon them for everything.


Looking back, do you think you ever actually believed?

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:45 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
She just launched into a verbal assault on my character. She can't bear the though that I won't be with them in eternity.

A "verbal assault on your character?" Next time, maybe remind her that, according to Jesus, it might be them who aren't with you in eternity:

Matthew 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Quote:
Looking back, do you think you ever actually believed?

I still believe a lot of it. But I noticed things I didn't believe as time went on. I started asking myself why people need to be baptized into Mormonism to be saved? Why can't they just live true principles and work their salvation out that way?

I didn't believe that mortal LDS leaders were infallible in receiving revelation. That was always a sore point for me. Anytime you tried to point out this obvious truth, you were attacked as under the influence of Satan and trying to tear down the church.

The hardest thing for me right now is how dry and painfully boring LDS Sunday School lessons are. I guess they're scared of people like me noticing they might make a mistake if they were to try to actually receive a new revelation. Why they can't just admit a mistake is possible is beyond me.

She actually told me to put those things I disagreed with on a shelf and come back to them when we knew more. Was there some church object lesson where they taught about the "shelf?"

Dr. Shades, it's my mom. She loves me more than anyone else in this world possibly could. I can't take disagreeing with her.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:13 pm 
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That’s got to be rough. Sounds like you love her, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:38 am 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
That’s got to be rough. Sounds like you love her, too.

Thanks Res Ipsa. She's my mother. Misguided or not, there's no denying she wants what is best for me. I know we've all had to endure similar experiences. It's heart wrenching.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Names
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:46 pm 
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Question - What is Zelphophelia?

A. The Danish fiancée of Prince Zelph in Shakespeare's play Zelph.
B. The Latin term meaning "one who loves Zelph".
C. A character from one of the Dr. Steuss books, Zelph on a Shelf. Zelphophelia may also be found in Lox in the Socks and Bagels.
D. All of the above.

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