Faith in Doubt

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Amore
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Faith in Doubt

Post by Amore »

1) All we think is subjectively limited so all our thoughts - including doubts - are faith-based.

2) To truly be faith, there must be some doubt, otherwise it is either knowing with 100% certainty, or the belief of such & without the belief you could be wrong, you'd set yourself up for worshipping falsehoods.

Hopes?
Doubts?
:smile:

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Bazooka
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Bazooka »

Got no idea what point you're making or what question you are asking....do I need to have faith to understand you?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)

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subgenius
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by subgenius »

Amore wrote:1) All we think is subjectively limited so all our thoughts - including doubts - are faith-based.

2) To truly be faith, there must be some doubt, otherwise it is either knowing with 100% certainty, or the belief of such & without the belief you could be wrong, you'd set yourself up for worshipping falsehoods.

Hopes?
Doubts?
:smile:

Amore, I always enjoy your posts and insights...but....

the majority of readers here are not interested in (i.e. insulted by) self-inspection at the level you are suggesting.
To admit that all things are uncertain inevitably concludes with several things being "possible"...and "possible" is the most devastating word to an atheist.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent

Amore
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Amore »

Bazooka,
Come again in 10 years and maybe then you'll understand, I hope.
Line upon line.

Subgenius,
It was a shot in the nihilistic cult.

Seriously, though, my intent was/is to shed light on the fact that life is not black or white. No need to blindly believe any group mentality- Atheist or Mormon etc. And no need to succumb to depressingly consuming doubt that strips life of meaning. Even those who adhere to such meaningless bias are still exercising faith in such doubt, when they are as clueless as anybody else.

The way is narrow because most people want to join herd mentalities (including A-theism) rather than consider things independent of such loyalties.

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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Themis »

Amore wrote:1) All we think is subjectively limited so all our thoughts - including doubts - are faith-based.

2) To truly be faith, there must be some doubt, otherwise it is either knowing with 100% certainty, or the belief of such & without the belief you could be wrong, you'd set yourself up for worshipping falsehoods.

Hopes?
Doubts?
:smile:


Thomas S. Monson

Faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other.


Someone does not agree with you.
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by RockSlider »

Joseph Smith's "Lectures on Faith" tells us that true faith requires certain knowledge (not the wishy washy definition of faith one typically hears), no doubt can exists for real/true mustard seed moving mountains level of faith to work.

So what say ye is the relationship of belief and faith?

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subgenius
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by subgenius »

Themis wrote:
Amore wrote:1) All we think is subjectively limited so all our thoughts - including doubts - are faith-based.

2) To truly be faith, there must be some doubt, otherwise it is either knowing with 100% certainty, or the belief of such & without the belief you could be wrong, you'd set yourself up for worshipping falsehoods.

Hopes?
Doubts?
:smile:


Thomas S. Monson

Faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other.


Someone does not agree with you.

I got a sense that the OP was noting how doubt is often the precursor to faith. ...or even that doubt itself is an act of faith. ...
Or are you of the idea that the OP is suggesting some sorry of cognitive dissonance. ..or rather, spiritual dissonance?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent

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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Themis »

subgenius wrote:I got a sense that the OP was noting how doubt is often the precursor to faith. ...or even that doubt itself is an act of faith. ...
Or are you of the idea that the OP is suggesting some sorry of cognitive dissonance. ..or rather, spiritual dissonance?


I only showed someone does not agree.
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Bazooka
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Bazooka »

subgenius wrote:I got a sense that the OP was noting how doubt is often the precursor to faith. ...or even that doubt itself is an act of faith. ...
Or are you of the idea that the OP is suggesting some sorry of cognitive dissonance. ..or rather, spiritual dissonance?


It's only Mormon doubts that one should doubt though, right?
If a Catholic has doubts about their faith because of what Mormon missionaries have told them, they should first doubt their doubts before doubting their Catholic faith, right?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)

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subgenius
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by subgenius »

Bazooka wrote:
subgenius wrote:I got a sense that the OP was noting how doubt is often the precursor to faith. ...or even that doubt itself is an act of faith. ...
Or are you of the idea that the OP is suggesting some sorry of cognitive dissonance. ..or rather, spiritual dissonance?


It's only Mormon doubts that one should doubt though, right?
If a Catholic has doubts about their faith because of what Mormon missionaries have told them, they should first doubt their doubts before doubting their Catholic faith, right?

I doubt that.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent

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Bazooka
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Bazooka »

Bazooka wrote:
subgenius wrote:I got a sense that the OP was noting how doubt is often the precursor to faith. ...or even that doubt itself is an act of faith. ...
Or are you of the idea that the OP is suggesting some sorry of cognitive dissonance. ..or rather, spiritual dissonance?


It's only Mormon doubts that one should doubt though, right?
If a Catholic has doubts about their faith because of what Mormon missionaries have told them, they should first doubt their doubts before doubting their Catholic faith, right?

subgenius wrote:I doubt that.

:lol:
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)

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subgenius
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by subgenius »

Image
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent

Amore
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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Amore »

Polarized (Bipolar) thinking is so common, even in the LDS culture.

But thinking with integrity is paradoxical thinking.

Subgenius,
I love that picture, and the implications of illusion.
"Functional illusions are priceless."

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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by sunstoned »

Faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other.


Monson has not really thought of this all that deeply. I believe his motivation is to keep membership numbers high. You do this by discouraging reflection and inquiry. the gospel as presented by the church is a 100 miles wide and 2 inches deep.

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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Boanerges »

Amore wrote:1) All we think is subjectively limited so all our thoughts - including doubts - are faith-based.

2) To truly be faith, there must be some doubt, otherwise it is either knowing with 100% certainty, or the belief of such & without the belief you could be wrong, you'd set yourself up for worshipping falsehoods.

Hopes?
Doubts?
:smile:


I get it, Amore. Your point is well taken and thanks for sharing.

Perhaps it's like Harry Potter's thestrals. Only those of us with certain experiences can comprehend and to those that don't comprehend, no amount of trying to explain on our part will help them see what we see.

I am extremely grateful for my doubts, for without them I would not understand my faith.

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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Amore »

Boanerges,
Thank you. :)

It's in no way easy to embrace paradoxes that we are.
Accept imperfection, but strive for better... It's so tempting for me to just strive for better, but then my criticalness drives me & those I project it onto, crazy.

Then again, if I just accept everthing without striving, no progress is made and problems can become worse in the attempts at denial.

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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Amore »

RockSlider wrote:Joseph Smith's "Lectures on Faith" tells us that true faith requires certain knowledge (not the wishy washy definition of faith one typically hears), no doubt can exists for real/true mustard seed moving mountains level of faith to work.

So what say ye is the relationship of belief and faith?

Good question.

If faith can move mountains - or at least have some influence as quantum physics suggests - then ideally, it is carefully directed. This implies the need of testing, doubt.

Belief seems to be repeated thought that affects action, so some degree of active faith.

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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Res Ipsa »

Amore wrote:
RockSlider wrote:Joseph Smith's "Lectures on Faith" tells us that true faith requires certain knowledge (not the wishy washy definition of faith one typically hears), no doubt can exists for real/true mustard seed moving mountains level of faith to work.

So what say ye is the relationship of belief and faith?

Good question.

If faith can move mountains - or at least have some influence as quantum physics suggests - then ideally, it is carefully directed. This implies the need of testing, doubt.

Belief seems to be repeated thought that affects action, so some degree of active faith.


Nothing in quantum physics suggests that faith moves or influences mountains. It does, however, move money from one person to another.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

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Re: Faith in Doubt

Post by Amore »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Amore wrote:Good question.

If faith can move mountains - or at least have some influence as quantum physics suggests - then ideally, it is carefully directed. This implies the need of testing, doubt.

Belief seems to be repeated thought that affects action, so some degree of active faith.


Nothing in quantum physics suggests that faith moves or influences mountains. It does, however, move money from one person to another.

It does suggest some influence, as demonstrated in the double split experiment:
https://scienceterms.net/psychology/dou ... xperiment/

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