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 Post subject: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:36 pm 
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While I have only been on this site for a couple of weeks, it seems that many of the discussions are dominated by a mode of debate. The few comments that I have made seemed out of place at best.

In my desire to understand the nature of those that make up this site, I would like to discuss a subject that is close to my heart, learning by the Spirit and Prayer.

It seems that a least some here have had few of what I would call spiritual experiences. In one case the writer implied that since spiritual experience could not be validated externally, then they must be figments of human imagination. I can understand that as many years ago, I too felt few spiritual experiences.

Today, I feel very different about Prayer and learning by the Spirit. Simply, prayer works. I have seen the results of it change lives. I have personally experienced gaining not just a confirmation of something, but new knowledge that was unknown to me previously.
For example, when knowledge is received on a new technology, and it totally changes the direction we can go, I can't attribute that to human imagination.

I have tried to explain the feeling of Holy Ghost giving new insight, and I find it about as impossible as describing the color of a sunset to a blind man. Even though it is difficult to describe, it is real, tangible and can be recognized.

Last night was posted an amazing talk that showed the power of prayer and science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIP8JSx2Qkc

I would like to hear of others experiences with prayer and learning by the spirit. If you would like to share off board my email is jpotter@science.edu


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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:23 pm 
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Jay, the difficulty you are going to have is to articulate the difference between what you claim as a spiritual experience which confirms a direction in your life, with the spiritual experience of others that takes them in an opposite direction and the difference with a self generated feeling of confirmation bias.

In what distinct and identifiable ways can you identify that your spiritual experience is NOT something you have generated yourself?

*It takes a little time to get used to the board dynamics. Bear with it through the first weeks of your posting life and you will be rewarded with a very engaging set of posters. Yes they will challenge you, yes they will pull your leg, yes they will argue and contradict and sometimes they'll be rude (me included). Get past all that and you will enjoy it here. Welcome, and I look forward to your contributions.

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:56 pm 
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Bazooka wrote:
Jay, the difficulty you are going to have is to articulate the difference between what you claim as a spiritual experience which confirms a direction in your life, with the spiritual experience of others that takes them in an opposite direction and the difference with a self generated feeling of confirmation bias.


The paths that we as individuals are directed to take are often very different from each other. I am so glad that God knows our individual needs and the path that we need to take. Each of us are at different points in our progression to return home to God. The step that you need to take next will be probably very different than the step I need to take. Line upon line. Also different origination points.

The key thing is that we recognize when it is from God and not our own whimsy. And right behind that, follow it. We can't expect God to keep giving us direction if we don't follow what he has already given.


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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:07 pm 
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Which spirit to you subscribe to? I, personally am an acolyte of Exu. Axe Exu!

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:00 am 
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Jay wrote:
The key thing is that we recognize when it is from God and not our own whimsy.


Exactly.

I have yet to hear of any reliable way to identify the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Jay wrote:
While I have only been on this site for a couple of weeks, it seems that many of the discussions are dominated by a mode of debate. The few comments that I have made seemed out of place at best.

In my desire to understand the nature of those that make up this site, I would like to discuss a subject that is close to my heart, learning by the Spirit and Prayer.



Hi Jay,

This site offers a wide variety of discussions on Mormonsim, which, for the most part are unmoderated. As a result most faithful LDS look elsewhere for the type of discussion you are looking for. Many posters here have serious objections to the methodology for learning by the spirit that you see as valid. So instead of getting people to share what they have learned by this method you will probably find most asking why they should assume it is an accurate means of learning.

To put it bluntly, this forum is not a support group for your run of the mill LDS beliefs.

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Bazooka wrote:
Jay wrote:
The key thing is that we recognize when it is from God and not our own whimsy.


Exactly.

I have yet to hear of any reliable way to identify the difference.


If you will use this key when you pray, it will unlock the truth and you will know if the Holy Ghost has spoken to you or if it is any other voice. The test is very simple. When you have prayed and asked God to reveal something to you, and now you hear an answer coming into your mind into your soul, when you have received the answer, ask yourself this question, "Is there any doubt at all in my heart that this might be wrong? Is there even a little tiny flicker of doubt?" If a truth has been testated to you by the Holy Ghost, there is no doubt. If you feel even a flicker of doubt, then you have not received the witness of the Holy Ghost. Now maybe the spirit is revealing to you truth, but until that truth is signed or testated to by the Holy Ghost, you cannot trust. So, some of you, when you receive something you think might be revelation, you say, "Oh, God I have heard these words and I desire now to know if they be true or if they are not true. Please reveal to me by the Holy Ghost whether or not these things be true." You have no way of controlling when the Holy Ghost will speak to you. When it is bearing witness it will always sign its name. It will always testify to the truthfullness of the message it brings. But the important key I want to leave with you is the key that says, "If you still have some doubts, if you are not sure, then you have not heard the Holy ghost." Now do not confuse this with the counterfeit. There is a counterfeit that says, "Since that was something I did not want to hear, I doubt it is right." I have seen many people do that. They only deceive themselves. Anyone else can tell that they really know that it is true. They just do not want to admit it or they do not want to face it. If you are tired of receiving revelation from the Holy Ghost, reject the light that is given to you, or as the scriptures say, "Turn on your light." When you receive revealed truth and you reject it because it was not what you wanted to hear, you offend the spirit, heaven is greived and it will be a long time before the Holy Ghost will ever speak to you again. There is a great responsibility that comes with receiving revealed truth -- responsibility to obey and be true and faithful to the truth that you have received.

If you would live with God again, you must learn how to walk by the Holy Ghost, how to dance in this life, in tune with the wishes and the propmtings of the Almighty God. The only way you can achieve this is through an ability of hearing and feeling the promptings of the Holy Ghost. Make this gift a constant companion. Learn to discern. Never call your selfish desires, counterfeit feelings or satanic lies a prompting of the Holy Ghost. To say God spoke these things when it was not God, is to offend truth and to have the heavens withdraw from you. Just as you must never deny the witness of the Holy Ghost when it has been given.

Now these are seemingly small simple things, but I say in them is the very power unto salvation. If you would master these things, you would find in them the power unto the attainment of eternal life.


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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:54 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:

Hi Jay,

This site offers a wide variety of discussions on Mormonsim, which, for the most part are unmoderated. As a result most faithful LDS look elsewhere for the type of discussion you are looking for. Many posters here have serious objections to the methodology for learning by the spirit that you see as valid. So instead of getting people to share what they have learned by this method you will probably find most asking why they should assume it is an accurate means of learning.

To put it bluntly, this forum is not a support group for your run of the mill LDS beliefs.


Although I believe in being taught by the spirit, that very process has led me to anything but run of the mill LDS beliefs. :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:10 pm 
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I worked as an ordinance worker, two nights a week for eight years with a weekly fast and focus on personal revelation. During my prayers, study and contemplations I started receiving strong revelation that I was to be the next bishop of my ward. The revelation was absolutely clear to me, as with a still small voice and strong emotional responses that would leave me weeping tears of joy. This revelation was detailed including the likes of the names of my counselors, secretary and clerks.

About two months later, a new bishopric was put into place. True and consistent to my other experiences with personal revelation, I was NOT called to be the bishop.

This final experience with prayer and personal inspiration/revelation devastated me after eight years of wasted time seeking after being taught and led by the spirit.

You mileage may vary?


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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:32 pm 
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Jay wrote:
So, some of you, when you receive something you think might be revelation, you say, "Oh, God I have heard these words and I desire now to know if they be true or if they are not true. Please reveal to me by the Holy Ghost whether or not these things be true." You have no way of controlling when the Holy Ghost will speak to you.


Funny this ... I had no doubts as to the strength and truth of the message. And yet when it proved false, I started pleading with God for instruction, that I might learn whatever lesson this surely must have been for me.

The heavens turned to brass, the still small voice gone, the burning in the bosom gone. My pleading for understanding and help went on for over a year. The heavens remained silent.

With a solid hope and belief that "Ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened unto you" started turning into a questioning "What father with a son asking for a fish gives him a stone?" as this experience became as an open wound unto my soul.

After about a year of this seeking to understand and the resulting torturing of my soul, I finally prayed a pray that was answered ... I give up, I don't want to understand anymore, the pain is too much ... please take away this pain.

My inactivity in the church started shortly after that and the open wound to my soul is now just an ugly scar.

But at least the pain did stop.


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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:30 pm 
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Rockslider.

I don't have an answer for you. In my own case, I know that when I wanted an "answer" to something that I really desired, it was as you said, the heavens turned to brass. It seems that preconceived answers drive the spirit away. It is only when I went in desiring only to know the Lord's will and then willing to do it, that I received direction.

One possibility was that it was the Lord's will to call you to that position, just not the Stake President's.


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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:39 pm 
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Jay wrote:
Rockslider.

I don't have an answer for you. In my own case, I know that when I wanted an "answer" to something that I really desired, it was as you said, the heavens turned to brass. It seems that preconceived answers drive the spirit away. It is only when I went in desiring only to know the Lord's will and then willing to do it, that I received direction.

One possibility was that it was the Lord's will to call you to that position, just not the Stake President's.

Why do you keep denying by far the most obvious and likely probability that "promptings of the spirit" or the Holy Ghost are simply neither reliable nor real?

Do you honestly believe that merely being free of doubt about the source of your promptings is an infallible guarantee that you are right? Do you think the 9-11 terrorists had even the slightest doubt that they were doing the will of God?

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:58 pm 
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Jay,

When the shelves all start collapsing its a very disorienting and painful time. If one were to pray for Jay, would it be that his shelves never collapse or that they might quickly collapse and that Jay might be able to quickly recover from it?

Maybe the answer is individually based, and maybe its universal, I can not tell.

One could only hope for balance, where not too much of life is wasted, as it was in my case.


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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:28 pm 
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I prayed Jay. I felt Exu strongly tell my heart and mind that the Book of Mormon is false and Joseph Smith a con man.

What now?

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:53 am 
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SteelHead wrote:
I prayed Jay. I felt Exu strongly tell my heart and mind that the Book of Mormon is false and Joseph Smith a con man.

What now?

LittleNipper claims to have gotten the same result when he prayed about the Book of Mormon, except, of course, Exu was not the God he prayed to. Of course, just because he did not pray to Exu, does not necessarily preclude the possibility that Exu is the one who answered.

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No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:09 am 
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Jay wrote:
If you will use this key when you pray, it will unlock the truth and you will know if the Holy Ghost has spoken to you or if it is any other voice. The test is very simple. When you have prayed and asked God to reveal something to you, and now you hear an answer coming into your mind into your soul, when you have received the answer, ask yourself this question, "Is there any doubt at all in my heart that this might be wrong? Is there even a little tiny flicker of doubt?" If a truth has been testated to you by the Holy Ghost, there is no doubt. If you feel even a flicker of doubt, then you have not received the witness of the Holy Ghost. Now maybe the spirit is revealing to you truth, but until that truth is signed or testated to by the Holy Ghost, you cannot trust. So, some of you, when you receive something you think might be revelation, you say, "Oh, God I have heard these words and I desire now to know if they be true or if they are not true. Please reveal to me by the Holy Ghost whether or not these things be true." You have no way of controlling when the Holy Ghost will speak to you. When it is bearing witness it will always sign its name. It will always testify to the truthfullness of the message it brings. But the important key I want to leave with you is the key that says, "If you still have some doubts, if you are not sure, then you have not heard the Holy ghost." Now do not confuse this with the counterfeit. There is a counterfeit that says, "Since that was something I did not want to hear, I doubt it is right." I have seen many people do that. They only deceive themselves. Anyone else can tell that they really know that it is true. They just do not want to admit it or they do not want to face it. If you are tired of receiving revelation from the Holy Ghost, reject the light that is given to you, or as the scriptures say, "Turn on your light." When you receive revealed truth and you reject it because it was not what you wanted to hear, you offend the spirit, heaven is greived and it will be a long time before the Holy Ghost will ever speak to you again. There is a great responsibility that comes with receiving revealed truth -- responsibility to obey and be true and faithful to the truth that you have received.

If you would live with God again, you must learn how to walk by the Holy Ghost, how to dance in this life, in tune with the wishes and the propmtings of the Almighty God. The only way you can achieve this is through an ability of hearing and feeling the promptings of the Holy Ghost. Make this gift a constant companion. Learn to discern. Never call your selfish desires, counterfeit feelings or satanic lies a prompting of the Holy Ghost. To say God spoke these things when it was not God, is to offend truth and to have the heavens withdraw from you. Just as you must never deny the witness of the Holy Ghost when it has been given.

Now these are seemingly small simple things, but I say in them is the very power unto salvation. If you would master these things, you would find in them the power unto the attainment of eternal life.


Jay, can you demonstrate how this is a reliable method?
Based on a quick survey of the people on this forum, it can be clearly seen to be demonstrably unreliable.

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:14 am 
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Bazooka wrote:

Jay, can you demonstrate how this is a reliable method?
Based on a quick survey of the people on this forum, it can be clearly seen to be demonstrably unreliable.

Here comes the usual cynicism and facetious hair-splitting form Bazooka.(er. Drifting)
Did you not bother to read the OP?
Quote:
...the writer implied that since spiritual experience could not be validated externally, then they must be figments of human imagination. ...(snip)..I have seen the results of it change lives. I have personally experienced gaining not just a confirmation of something, but new knowledge that was unknown to me previously.


Again, Bazooka denies the truth conveyed in the USA DoI (which is understandable since he may be upset about the thrashing the empire took back in 1776)
Image

For some reason...odd a sit may seem...posters like Bazooka deny "self-evident" when it comes to all things theological...but readily accept "self-evident" when it comes to granting LGBT a marriage license.
Do not be fooled..."reliability" is a term of convenience for Zook and his ilk.

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:58 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Again, Bazooka denies the truth conveyed in the USA DoI (which is understandable since he may be upset about the thrashing the empire took back in 1776)
Image

For some reason...odd a sit may seem...posters like Bazooka deny "self-evident" when it comes to all things theological...but readily accept "self-evident" when it comes to granting LGBT a marriage license.
Do not be fooled..."reliability" is a term of convenience for Zook and his ilk.


In what conceivable way is the American Declaration of Independence relevant to "Prayer and Learning by the Spirit"?

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:18 am 
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Bazooka wrote:
Jay, can you demonstrate how this is a reliable method?
Based on a quick survey of the people on this forum, it can be clearly seen to be demonstrably unreliable.


Just because you are not having or have had experiences, does not mean that they have not happened and are happening to others.

Is your vision reliable? To a blind man the descriptions of what you see make little or no sense as they are outside of his experience. But does that make them any less real to you? Your sight allows you to travel with a confidence that the blind man will never know.

Granted we often ignore what we see, or even take it for granted, and in the process we stumble and fall. But that is not to say that sight is unreliable. We simply did not use the gift of sight that was available to us.

Wouldn't it be humerous for a conference of the blind to condemn those that see because of a quick survey of those that were blind?

Can you recognize the voice of your spouse in a crowd? How were you able to, there are so many voices in the crowd? Yet if you heard her tell you that your child was in danger, would you ignore it? The Holy spirit has a identifiable personality that is just as distinct as the voice of your spouse. You can learn to recognize it.

Is learning by the Holy Spirit unreliable? Apparently so, at least for you.

In the case of learning by the Holy Spirit, if we ignore it, it will simply stop. If we don't yearn for it, it will never come. If we aren't willing to live what we are taught, again it won't happen. There are rules that governs how the Holy Spirit operates. If we try to operate outside of those rules, then as you observe, the Holy Spirit won't prompt you, or as you stated it is unreliable.

The prompting of the Holy Spirit is not limited to a simple "yes" or "no". That is only the beginning steps. After we begin to learn the "signature" or the "personality" of the Holy Ghost, we begin to receive much more. There is nothing more amazing that receiving a truth that we didn't even know to ask for a "yes" or "no". When we receive such a truth, it is at a whole new level beyond reliability. We recognize the truth as pure knowledge and truth from God. We also know that we cannot deny it, for not only do we know it, but God knows that we know it.

The good news is that we don't have to remain blind as God has promised that all of his children can receive his truths and directions that they need in their lives and that isn't just true for those that belong to the LDS Church - ALL OF HIS CHILDREN.

I was attracted to this site as it indicated that it's purpose was "Because we all want the truth". Apparently there are at least a few that are instead seeking out justification for their actions. I hope that are at least some who are really seeking out truth and will share what they have found through the Holy Spirit. We all have much to learn.


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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:41 am 
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Jay I talked with Exu today, he told me Yoda's prescience via the force is more reliable than your holy ghost.

What now?

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 Post subject: Re: Prayer and Learning by the Spirit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:05 am 
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SteelHead wrote:
Jay I talked with Exu today, he told me Yoda's prescience via the force is more reliable than your holy ghost.

What now?


If that is how you receive truth, then go for it. But don't put down what works for other people. God gives each of us, what we are prepared to receive. If you are satisfied with talking with Exu, then so be it, that will be the limit of what you can receive. Personally, I'm not quite so easily satisfied.


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