The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

[_huckelberry]

Yes, I am somewhat familiar with Western vs. Eastern views on the subject of dogmatic rigidity, having lived a number of years in Asia where I taught ESL, completed a degree in Mandarin Chinese, and consulted at Beijing Film Academy on the subject of historic process photography. The bad habit many Westerners have of using the Bible as a proof text to asses the "truth content" of other supernatural belief systems is--thankfully--less common in Asia. It would be nice if more xtians would recognize the fact that xianity is simply one supernatural belief system among many other supernatural belief systems.

Erotic Apologist,
I think your phrase "Christianity is simply one supernatural belief system amoung many other supernatural belief systems" has all the problematic ambiguity contained in Pauls parallell observation, "there may be Gods many but to us there is just one" The problem of what that phrase actually means got beat to death in this thread with what may have been steadily decreasing clarity and communication. Of course there are other supernatural belief systems but what is the relationship of one to the others? Perhaps somebody could mean they all have no truth, meaning or desirable utility. That would be a possible meaning clear and simple . I doubt that is the meaning underlying Eastern cultural perceptions. At least it is hardly the meaning that Hindu thinking would take on the significant of many religious systems. It is not the meaning Native Americans, thinking of many spiritual paths or ways, would take. It is not the ancient Greek Roman understanding of attempting a big tent with lots and lots of Gods perhaps each have different names in different places. I suspect there are other possible takes on the relationships. I have experimented with thinking of a few different possibilities myself from time to time.

I think your observation is not so much a resolution but a statement of the obvious puzzle people have been thinking over for past three thousand years or so.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Of course there are other supernatural belief systems but what is the relationship of one to the others? Perhaps somebody could mean they all have no truth, meaning or desirable utility. That would be a possible meaning clear and simple . I doubt that is the meaning underlying Eastern cultural perceptions. At least it is hardly the meaning that Hindu thinking would take on the significant of many religious systems. It is not the meaning Native Americans, thinking of many spiritual paths or ways, would take. It is not the ancient Greek Roman understanding of attempting a big tent with lots and lots of Gods perhaps each have different names in different places.

Yes, I can agree with this. I would even go so far as to suggest that all of these supernatural belief systems are all simultaneously true, in so far as any one supernatural belief system can be said to be true.

I think your observation is not so much a resolution but a statement of the obvious puzzle people have been thinking over for past three thousand years or so.

I think I can agree with this as well, though I wouldn't characterize it as a puzzle to be solved, or a challenge to be conquered--which is Little Nipper's intolerant way of looking at religion. I had Little Nipper in mind when I made the remark about Westerners using the Bible as a proof text to asses the "truth content" of other supernatural belief systems. This was also precisely the attitude of Catholic & Protestant missionaries in China during the Taiping Tyangwo Rebellion--the bloodiest civil war in recorded history--and it was precisely this attitude that resulted in Europe siding with the corrupt Ching Dynasty as opposed to the reform-minded, quasi-Christian Taiping rebels.

FYI--Felice Beato, one of the world's first war photographers, was present in China during the Second Opium War. Beato's plates represent some of the earliest photographic images of pre-revolutionary China. Beato was also one of those interesting artists who would show up after the shooting stopped and would re-arrange the dead bodies to "enhance" their aesthetic effect.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Nice. Where I work, there are people who work with the Beijing Film Academy in a kind of cultural exchange. I'm in a dark back room, they feed me once in a while, but don't let me out among the "talent".

Do you work in a dark room? When we first got married, my wife worked at a genealogical library in Provo, retouching & restoring old photos. The place was like a damp, echoey cave with sounds of water dripping in the background. That was back before everything went digital...

[_huckelberry]

I wouldn't characterize it as a puzzle to be solved, or a challenge to be conquered--which is Little Nipper's intolerant way of looking at religion. I had Little Nipper in mind when I made the remark about Westerners using the Bible as a proof text to asses the "truth content" of other supernatural belief systems. This was also precisely the attitude of Catholic & Protestant missionaries in China during the Taiping Tyangwo Rebellion--the bloodiest civil war in recorded history--and it was precisely this attitude that resulted in Europe siding with the corrupt Ching Dynasty as opposed to the reform-minded, quasi-Christian Taiping rebels.

FYI--Felice Beato, one of the world's first war photographers, was present in China during the Second Opium War. Beato's plates represent some of the earliest photographic images of pre-revolutionary China. Beato was also one of those interesting artists who would show up after the shooting stopped and would re-arrange the dead bodies to "enhance" their aesthetic effect.

Erotic Apologist,

There is a long litany of ugly results from people who felt they must suppress error. I find myself thinking of the example of violence given to monophysites in the eastern Mediterranean when it was still Roman empire.. After trust and loyalty to Roman power was destroyed by violent suppression of local belief the area was easy picking for expansionist Islam. Due to doctrine conflict the west found it ok to abandon Constantinople. The result of violent establishment of doctrinal unity? More than half of Christendom taken over by Islam.

Pardon the simplification of history but I think there is a point. I think that Christianity has been corrupted, and disfigured at times by the compulsion to enforce uniform dogma. It may create one sort of strength but at great cost to the fundamental values for which people have valued Christianity.

My own hope is not so much that people will forget about making comparisons or considering errors but my hope is that people can become able to see value in beliefs and systems despite errors.

I am not one who believes dogmas do not matter. I believe they express the very ideas for which people value a r belief system or religion. I think if a doctrine is important to you you cannot help but noticing how some ideas contradict what you hold dear. I see no reason to hide from that . ON the other hand I see no reason that being aware of the conflicts should blind one to the positive values of other systems which are unlike your own.

[_madeleine]

Nice. Where I work, there are people who work with the Beijing Film Academy in a kind of cultural exchange. I'm in a dark back room, they feed me once in a while, but don't let me out among the "talent".

Do you work in a dark room? When we first got married, my wife worked at a genealogical library in Provo, retouching & restoring old photos. The place was like a damp, echoey cave with sounds of water dripping in the background. That was back before everything went digital...

Dimly lit, with a nice window though. I stare at computer screens all day.

[_Mittens]

This is a thread about Christianity, so the Christian faith tradition is not only relevant, it is the context. It is you who seeks to move outside of this context.

Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Also, basic Trinitarian theology. Justin says very specifically the Word of God is not cut from God, but is same *thing*, using the analogy of fire.

And a son is the exact same composition of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, etc. When I use a stick to kindle a second fire from one fire, it is not the same fire, it's just the same type of physical composition resulting from chemical reactions between substances. Good grief, this is rudimentary physics.

No one says anything different now, at Nicaea or any time in between.

So everyone has always said Jesus was another god?

I hope that when you give your word, you don't believe it is something separate from you, something that lives on its own.

First, as I pointed out, there's an enormous semantic difference between "giving your word" and "saying a word." Which do you mean? Please don't ignore this question again.

Second, it is physically and philosophically impossible for a spoken word of any kind to remain your own property. A spoken word is nothing more than a sound that symbolizes an agreed-upon concept. The sound vanishes immediately and all that is left is the connection made in the minds of the speakers and hearers between the sound and the concept, whether or not that correction is what was originally intended.

When you give your word, it is giving yourself.

Utter and complete nonsense. You are vibrating vocal chords to create sound waves.

there was a time when breaking your word said something negative about the person.

Now you're equivocating. Speaking a word and "giving your word" are entirely different things, and Martyr's comments have nothing to do with "giving your word." Good lord, are you paying any attention at all?

not so much today. So maybe you are not understanding the concept? But no, Justin Martyr isn't giving a science lesson on sound waves.

And you are not understanding Martyr at all. He's not at all talking about a promise or an oath, and this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the kids these days and your reminiscing about how pure and honest our society used to be.

This united in will business is not in the text at all. It is as if Mormons have made the will of God, to be the essence of God.

Dialogue, 56:

Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things—numerically, I mean, not in will.

You have shown yourself to be abjectly ignorant of this subject matter, and despite your earlier attempt to actually engage my concerns, it's clear there is no hope of an informed debate here. I'm out.

This blog answers most anything Mormon

http://thetruthaboutmormonism-creeksalmon.blogspot.com/

[_Mittens]

So why does Joseph Smith JR pre-1835 teach Nicaea and Athanasius Creed doctrines rather than Mormon theology ??


2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God , without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God , to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.


The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God . Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal , without end. Amen.



An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God , manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun.

2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 5:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth , who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent , may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all . Amen.

Moroni 7:22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting , behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

Moroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from ball eternity to all eternity.

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Lectures_on_Faith

Lectures on Faith
Lecture Five 2. There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things, by whom all things were created and made…. They are the Father and the Son: the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fulness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, is a personage of tabernacle